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Something I Hope WILL-HAPPEN in SC2!.

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I like everyone else want's a true to form Operational SC2 game...just as WW2 was Historically...but, i would also like some icing on the cake with a what-if category for various Historical Combinations & Permutations.

It would be interesting to toggle on and off various Possible Technical trees to see what might have happened if the war had taken different research twists or had lasted longer than May 45!.

Here is an incomplete listing of various new technologies...including Wonder Weapons...Bunkers...New Armored Vehicle Technologies and applications...What could have been IF...IF...IF?.

Now i know SC2 doesn't have this Technology-Tree...so what can be done to try to incorporate some of these interesting elements into the game?. Does anyone know how, or if it can be done?...maybey include a special research branch which would be above and beyond the regular research lines...for various technologies.

http://sfstation.members.easyspace.com/allyx.htm [What would have happened in the European skies if WW2 had not finished on May 8th 1945?...Allied & Axis 'X'-Planes.]

United States: NORTHROP XP-79B Fighter...Roll-Out of Operational-Fighter slated for 1945.




http://sfstation.members.easyspace.com/allyx.htm [German & Italian prototypes...have a look at the REGIANE Re2007 Italian Jet-Fighter & PIAGGIO P.108B Heavy Bomber!].

http://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/wizernes.html [Check out the cut-away Coastal V-2 Rocket launching Bunker]


http://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/mobileoperations.html [Check out the A4/V2 Rocket Troop Unit Locations]

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/wunderwaffen/missile/missile.html --- Missiles-Super Guns[Vortex Tornado Gun, Wind Cannons, Sound Cannons, Electric Guns-Super Bombs] & [Chem/Bio which was never used by either side...for good reason!.]

http://www.worldwar.nl/secretweapons/secretgerman2.htm [some good examples of Rocket-Anti-Aircraft Weaponry]

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/ [Arsenal Of Dictatorship- Excellent Site!]

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/bunker/3351/germweps/sanger.html [Amerika Bomber]

http://www.luft46.com/misc/sanger.html [More information and Pictures on the Amerika-Bomber...it was intended to carry a Dirty-Bomb (uranium)...or Atom-Bomb...to force the Amercans into a War-Settlement.]

http://www.battlefield.ru/library/bookshelf/weapons/weapons7.html [ Was the Tiger really King???.]




http://www.battlefield.ru/ [An excellent comprehensive site on Soviet AFVs-which includes 'Tank Development', 'Artillery', 'Battles', 'Lend Lease', & 'Museums'.]

http://gunpoint-3d.com/ [Excellent site for 3D-Computer Views (also 3 views of each tank)][if you wish to save any of the views...add on for example _F, _S, & _R for Front, Side & Rear...otherwise the picture may not save as a viewable picture]

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/bunker/3351/allweps/skink.html [Canadian 20mm Quad, A/A Tank,"Skink"...'EXCERPT: the Skink attacked a building occupied by 50 enemy soldiers. Ten of them were wounded by HEIT fragments, the others surrendered in terror.'

http://www.military.cz/panzer/index_en.htm [skink Tank...Click 'Tanks' > Canada > Anti-Aircraft Tank Skink]


http://www.netaxs.com/people/ebailey/wasserfall.html [Guided anti-aircraft missile as well as German plan to protect 70 cities with a fourfold belt of antiaircraft rocket batteries.]






http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust3.htm [Check out the PanzerJager Bren 731(e)]


Take a look at this Super-Heavy American Assault Gun that never made it to the Battle-Field!.


The American AFV: Superheavy tank T28(1945) [105-mm Gun Motor Carriage T95].

http://www.military.cz/panzer/index_en.htm [ T-28 Experimental Tank ].



[ June 17, 2004, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

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I think we've already covered many of the new editor possibilities for research. You can't create new or different categories, but you can edit the various values by country. Max research level, chit cost, etc. Between this and editing unit values, it's possible to create a no-research game with country specific unit capabilities, block out certain tech areas, cap certain tech areas at any level between 1 and 5, etc., etc. It will be possible to experiment with all sorts of combinations to achieve different game effects.

This should keep SC2 going and going and going with new twists on an old game. Want to lock in "historical" capabilities and country differences? Fine. Want to create a free-for-all with lots of randomness and surprises? Fine again. The "official" SC2 will probably be somewhere inbetween. ;)

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I like everyone else want's a true to form Operational SC2 game ...
Hmmm... thats not what I want. Then again, it could simply be how we define operational.

To me, operational means the basic units are divisions. A version of that type of game is what the computerized World in Flames is suppossed to be.

Thats not what I'm looking for in SC or SC2.

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You have a point 'Shaka of Carthage'...this is a grey area...since these areas of thought overlap!.


The difference between operational and strategic levels is not critical to playing TOAW--the difference is fuzzy anyway. In the broadest sense, strategic planning deals with setting priorities that are theatre or national in scope; operational planning provides the means to achieve these strategic ends.

-Now to add to the confusion:


"Levels of War

To begin the journey toward an understanding of the fundamentals of Operational Art, we should first recognize the Levels of War, and begin to understand how these influence the development of related national and military plans.

There is general agreement that there are three basic Levels of Warfare: Strategic, Operational, and Tactical. The Strategic Level can be further divided into two sub-levels: National-Strategic and Theater-Strategic. Moreover, at the Operational Level, some theorists also identify sub-levels: Operational-Strategic and Operational- Tactical. The levels of war cannot always be neatly delineated because the operations therein are heavily interrelated, precise distinctions are blurred by time and circumstances, and individual and Service perspectives as to the sub-levels of war are not always in agreement. Moreover, events occurring at the lower levels of conflict often have direct consequences at higher levels, with the reverse also being true. All of which further complicates the definitional problem. In any event, it is clear that planning and force employment must be related to the proper level of operations for the command authority and responsibilities concerned or dangerous confusion frequently ensues."

[ June 10, 2004, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

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Very well stated Retributar, I applaud you. What SC is IMO is a strategic level game with an operational level of combat between units. There is a certain flavor of tactical level, like entrenchment and Tank Groups being able to ignore ZoCs, but largely combat is operational in scope and handled very appealingly.

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'Blashy'...that's no fun!!!...'speculation', 'rumor' and 'fantasy-world ideas' are what makes conversation here so interesting!.

Who knows what we will stumble across in the process or what it might result in!. The more talk, the better...and the better this game or hopefully a future game will be!.

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Does anyone of you guys speak German?? Have some interesting links on r&d on german rockets. They even tried to transport it by U-Boat and attack the US with it.




The V2-rockets were quite ineffective against Britain because the German spies were found and transformed into double-agents.

What about espionage in sc2?? Random spottings on units (include false alerts) and reports about new technologies of the enemy. Not influencing the outcome of the own research...

IMO the mentioned features should not be included in the regular game. But as a bonus. Why not??

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Spotting has been covered extensively in other threads...so this has already been covered...but, not false alerts as far as i know!.

Rockets were a great wonder(V1 & V2), no doubt about that...but their field application for the most part resulted into little or non-effective consequences.

Although,... had German Rocketry been allowed to develop just a little further...Rocket power would have been effectively used for Anti-Aircraft purposes(Against Bombers & Fighters)...as well as those research results being applied or utilitized for improved Aircraft and Aircraft armament results.

Some of the Web-Site links above in the opening posting cover this!.

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If now...WHAT IF!...for instance at 'Stalingrad'...if the Germans had had a couple of dozen of these AFV's...the Russians hiding in the Ruins might have had a difficult time trying to hold on to most of their positions!.




***Of course this tank debue'd after 'Stalingrad' was over...but, had its research & development been accellerated...might not it have made a difference at Leningrad, Stalingrad and other cities???. This assault gun was intended to be used to destroy Fortified Postions...and it did it's job very-well indeed!.***



The Sturmtiger

At Generaloberst Heinz Guderain's suggestion, the Alkett firm undertook the design of the Sturmtiger at their Spandau facility. Brandenburg Iron Works provided the armor plate while Krupp modified the Panzer VI chassis. The naval mortar, the 38cm RTg Racketen-Tauchgranate was modified by its manufacturer, Rheinmetall-Borsig, at their Sommerda plant. It all came together when the prototype was rolled out for Hitler on October 20, 1943, at the Arys training camp in East Prussia.


The Sturmtiger was built upon a Panzer VI "Tiger" chassis. For the most part, the hull and the suspension was unchanged from the "Tiger" tank (mostly the Ausf E models). The only difference in terms of the suspension was that the subsequent Sturmtigers had rubber-sprung, steel road wheels to help the vehicle cope with the additional weight which would be placed upon it. This modification also helped ease the strain on the wheel bearings and proved to be less prone to cloggage by mud and ice. The only chassis which could be allocated to the Sturmtiger project were those which were returned from the front for rebuilding. This arose from the fact that production of the "Tiger" tank had fallen below the given quotas and thus were in short supply. This almost proved to be the killing blow for the Sturmtiger project until, in mid-1944, Hitler ordered that returning chassis from the front could be used for the Sturmtiger.


German 38-cm Panzermorser Sturmtiger Ausf.E(1944)





This extremely rare vehicle was a SP 38cm mortar on a Tiger I chassis. Hull was unchanged and a large box superstructure was added. The short barreled mortar projector fired a massive 761 Ib. shell up to 18,000 feet. The design was unusual in that the projectile was rocket assisted and the gun tube had vents in the wall to expel propellant gases forward. An attached crane was used to breech load the projectile. It was intended for street warfare or operations against heavily fortified defenses. Interestingly, this weapon was developed in 1943 by the Navy

as an anti-submarine weapon. The Navy dropped the project and the Army mounted the weapon on the Tiger I Ausf B chassis as an assault gun. In December of 1944, 7 Sturmtigers participated in the Ardennes offensive but were thoroughly unsuited and unable to keep up with the Panzer IV and Panther tanks and, as such, made only a modest contribution. Some 18 Sturmmorser Tigers were produced in 1944 from damaged Tiger I tanks.




Armament: 1 - 38cm (15") Mirser StuM RW6 1 L/5.4 mortar


1 - 7.92mm MG 34

Engine: Maybach, HL 230 P45, V-12, gas, 700 hp

Speed: 25 mph

Range; 75 miles

Crew: 5

Weight: 68 tons

[ June 15, 2004, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

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E-100 HEAVY-TANK...more of the not so impossible possibilities.



The E-Series program was conceived by Dipl Ing Heinrich Ernst Kniekamp, Chief Engineer of Waffenpruefamt 6 in May of 1942. In April of 1943, Heereswaffenamt (Army Weapons Office) accepted his program and ordered many different manufacturers to start the planning and development of the Entwicklung (project/development) / Einheitsfahrgestell (general purpose chassis) Series. It was designed in order to replace armored vehicles and tanks that were used by the German Army from 1945 onwards. All six basic designs of E-Series would have standardized parts making their production, maintenance and service easier and cheaper. In 1944, Adolf Hitler cancelled any further development of the super heavy tanks and unfinished E-100 was virtually abandoned. The end of the war ended the development of the E-Series, which was in various stages ranging from blueprints to prototypes.

E-100 (100+ tons)

Designed by Adler (1944-45).

super heavy combat tank similar to the Maus (enlarged Tiger II),

super heavy Jagdpanzer "Krokodil" based on E-100 chassis,

super heavt Flakpanzer Flakzwilling 8.8cm auf E-100,

E-100 was to be mounted with modified Maus' turret,

It featured Belleville-Washer type suspension,

one prototype chassis built by Henschel at Paderborn in early 1945 - scapped post-war in England,

Some-More Pictures:








[ June 15, 2004, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

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Nice pics Retributar. Makes me think that we should define the research levels of SC2 to 4 levels. The 4th level would represent actual designs that were operationally feasible and limited to perhaps what were used in combat. Then let's say we have the option to "enable" level 5 research for each category that represents the hypothetical, prototype designs that were still on the drawing boards.

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Well...i just hate to see all of this expected technology...go into the waste-bin(Theres lots more than what i have here)...that's why i started this topic...in the hope of somehow incorporating these new technologies...for the game but especially for 1945 and onward!.

For example there has been much discussion about the inability of the Armoured formations being unable to protect themselves from allied air attacks. In the first posting was a web-site for Rocket or Missile or SuperGun weapons listed as weapons that could have been used to deter Allied air attacks.

Now, here is another...but an AFV... i don't know if it was actually employed in any meaningful numbers during the war!.

German antiaircraft self-propelled gun used in WW2. [Coelian FlakPanzer].





[ June 16, 2004, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

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Nodder-One!... Sanger Amerika Bomber... ["Silverbird" Orbital Bomber]

This project if it had been successful...could have forced the U.S. to sue for peace!...this is not a fictional programme...it was real...but, could not be completed in good time to make any difference!.










[ July 26, 2004, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

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Secret Aircraft Progects:

Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star (First Flown on Jan 8, 1944...and went into service in 1945)



The airplane had its origin in June 1943, when Lockheed was requested to design a fighter around the De Havilland turbojet engine developed in England in response to Germany's twin-engine jet fighter, the Messerschmitt Me 262.


Gotha Go-229 Flying Wing Fighter



[More] http://www.luft46.com/gotha/gop60a.html



Heinkel He 162A-2 Salamander Volksjäger



The He 162 was a small, single-engine jet fighter developed in less than three months using mostly wood and other non-strategic materials. The first prototype flew on December 6, 1944. --- 280 aircraft were completed before the end of the war (and another 800 were found in various stages of completion in the factories), but only a handful actually saw action, in the hands of regular pilots.

It was planned to build 4,000 of these aircraft each month in various versions.

The aircraft was unstable but,...could be flown with experienced pilots, of which the Reich was in short supply!.



Messerschmitt Me 263 (Junkers Ju 248)




More Bizarre aircraft:

http://www.luft46.com/jhart/lufartjh.html & http://www.luft46.com/luftart.html [Tremendous amount of Speculative German Aircraft Concepts].



Focke-Wulf triebflugeljager--'How could you safely land this thing?'.



Messerschmitt Me P 1101




Messerschmitt Me P 1079/51




Gloster Meteor (August 1944) [british]




[ June 17, 2004, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

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WW2 Soviet Weapons (TANKS) and Secret Weapons Development.

***[This is a challenging area...i could use any helpful links (Tanks, Aircraft, Artillery & Anti-Aircraft Gun Artillery)...searching for Soviet weapons is difficult...its not easy to find anything on the internet]***




IS-2 Heavy Soviet Tank (1943)

This tank was enlisted for service at the end of 1943 and was produced up until 1946. This tank was armed with a 122 mm D-25T main gun and three 7.62 mm DT machine guns. Some tanks were additionally equipped with 12.7 mm DSchK machine gun. Crew consisted of 4 people. The IS-2 successfully battled against Panthers and Tigers. This tank could be regarded as one of the most powerful, massively produced tanks of World War 2. Production for this tank was 35 (1943) - 2210 (1944) - 1150 (1945).


When the "Joseph Stalin" tank was tested in 1943 its armor piercing projectile penetrated the frontal armour of a German "Panther" tank at a distance of 1500 meters. The projectile's energy was so great that it not only penetrated the frontal armour but continued through another armour plate, the transmission, and finally blew away the back end of the tank. The back end landed a few meters away.


IS-3 Heavy Breakthrough Tank (1945)





The hull of the IS-3 was welded as opposed to being cast, as most foundries were alreadiy occupied with the manufature of turrets for the IS-2 and the T-34. At the same time, the latest advances in welding technology allowed for welded hulls of robust construction.

The IS-3 was noted for it's unusually rounded turred, fitted with a powerful `122mm D-25T gun. This rounded turret, shaped like an inverted soup-bowl, resembles modern Soviet turret design. The sloped shape deflected enemy armor-piercing shells more effectively than earlier slab-sided designs. Moreover, the turret's good internal layout minimized its dimensions while allowing its armor protection to be increased to 250 mm (the IS-2, by contrast, had only 100 mm).


Soviet ISU-152 heavy assault gun (Tank-Destroyer) armed with 152mm howitzer (Mid 1943). "Animal-Hunter"




From early 1943 to mid-1944, the main opponents of the Tiger on the Eastern Front were the assault guns based on T-34 and KV-1 chassis. When it was discovered that the existing SU-76 and SU-122 types could not penetrate the Tiger's armor at any distance under 1,000 meters, the Soviets decided to create a new assault gun, the SU-85, armed with an adaptation of the 85mm anti-aircraft gun. Production of the SU-122 was stopped and the SU-85 was adopted in its place. It was later followed by the SU-100 medium assault gun. In mid 1943, SU-152 heavy assault gun entered service. It was based on KV-1 heavy tank and was armed 152mm howitzer. It was nicknamed Zveroboi (Animal Killer). At the end of 1943, a new assault gun, the ISU-152, based on IS-2 heavy tank was produced. It was armed with a very powerful 152mm howitzer. The shell of this gun could penetrate any part of the Tiger's armor and even cut the turret from the hull. This assault gun was nicknamed "Animal Hunter". The weight of the AP shell was 48kg, while HE shell was 41kg. Production for this Tank-Destroyer was 35 (1943), 2510 (1944) & 1530 (1945).



Russian Army Assault Infantry


During World War II, the Russian Armed Forces consisted of five main elements; the Ground Forces, Navy, Air Force, National Air Defense and Armed Forces Support. The Ground Forces represented about 80 percent of the total manpower, being the largest in strength. It had approximately 5,300,000 military effectives at the outbreak of the Russo-German War in June 1941. However, devastating damage brought by the German Mechanized Forces resulted in more than 70 percent losses of its entire troop strength within five months. This led to rapid reorganization of the Ground Forces, and with a help of the harsh winter climate of Russia, they managed to repel German's advance just in front of Moscow. Due to the heavy losses, reorganized units became much smaller than before. Rifle Forces (infantry) reduced their divisional strength from 14,483 to 10,859. Tank Divisions, which possessed some 20,000 armored vehicles, lost about 70% of them at the initial stage of war. Most surviving Tank Divisions were disbanded, and the available tanks and crews were re-assigned to much smaller units like independent tank battalions or tank brigades. It was in 1945, just prior to the end of the conflict, that the Russian Armed Forces recuperated the pre-war level of their strength.

The main strength of the Russian counter-offensive was their tank troops. Following concentrated fire by their artillery units, the tank troops advanced in three groups, and many infantrymen rode on the tanks of the 2nd and 3rd groups. This infantry practice was unique to Russian tactics and was called "Tankoviy Desant" by the Russians. Since the Russian Ground Forces did not possess armored troop carriers like the German halftracks, an infantry battalion called the 'Motor Rifle Unit" was attached to every tank brigade and assigned to close support the tanks. A Motor Rifle Unit consisted of about 500 infantrymen. PPSh-41 or PPS-43 machine guns as support arms. Soldiers carried as many magazines as possible, and advanced while riding on tanks. Once encountering an enemy's defensive position, infantrymen would disembark from the tank, attack the position, and then return to the tank. These infantrymen were spearheads of the attack, and due to enemy's defensive fire, liable to sustain heavy casualties.

The standard uniform of the Russian infantrymen during WW2 was a simple blouse called "Gymnastiorka". Early in the conflict, greatcoats and rain capes were often used as wintertime attire. In 1940, a quilted jacket called "Telogreika" was introduced, but not enough quantities were supplied in the beginning.

[ July 05, 2004, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

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  • 3 weeks later...

"Virus House" German Nuclear Weapon

Circa 1944-45 by Pat F.



This device was to use a total of 10 layers of semi-refined U-235/238, alternating with Neutron absorbing kerosene. On impact, plungers would crush "Präparat", releasing neutrons, as shear pins broke, allowing the Uranium plates to come together via inertia and make a supercritical mass. The device would then detonate, or at least melt down, causing massive contamination. The target was to be midtown Manhattan. Two prototypes MAY have been built in 1945.


Leipzeig Sphere L-IV Plutonium Generator

(Circa June 1942) by Pat F.



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The scariest part about this all is that if the Nazi's had a better tactician running thier army they would have either taken Russia or been able to buy some more time and been able to develop all of these weapons, they had the best inventors.

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GUDKOV Gu-VRD, Soviet WWII Jet Fighter Project





In early 1943 when not only there were no captured examples of jet engines and aircraft, but even there was no information at all about German and British turbojet-powered aircraft in the Soviet Union, the designer M.I.Goudkov has completed a prototype design study of the Gu-VRD turbojet-powered fighter.

The project documentation was submitted on March 10, 1943. The Gu-VRD project was reviewed at NII VVS (Scientific Research Institute of the Air Force). A resolution of the leadership of the institute dated April 10, 1943 ordered: "Prepare urgently an evaluation review of the superfast fighter-interceptor of M.I.Goudkov design powered by Lyulka engine".

Department chief I.I.Safronov wrote in his memo of 17 April 1943: "... Apparently, the aircraft would fly with the claimed speed, but the problem is that as of today there is no engine, just the name of its designer. Hence, the emphasis is to be on the engine".

Gu-VRD was a monoplane with the engine placed in the bottom of the fuselage aft of the nose section. The side view of the aircraft had a step behind the engine's nozzle after which the fuselage had a much lesser cross section. Later this layout was named "stepped" and was used in the first Russian jet fighters MiG-9, Yak-15, La-150 and others. Some sources claimed that the stepped layout originated from German design studies of 1944- 1945. It is evident now that the stepped layout appeared in the USSR in 1943 without any foreign influence.

The tipped nose of the aircraft had four segmented air intakes. The wing had trapezoid plane with curved tips. The horizontal and vertical tail design was standard. The retractable landing gear had two main legs and a small tail wheel.

In the meantime Goudkov in his explanatory memo to the project wrote that by that time a combustion chamber of Lyulka engine had been tested, a two-stage axial compressor had been built and tested, achieving 1.25 compression ratio in each stage with 0.75 energy efficiency ratio, both figures rendered quite successful. An engine prototype rated at 750kg of static thrust had been designed and built to 70% readiness. Goudkov noted that the engine itself and majority of Lyulka design team were in Moscow. Lyulka planned to begin developing an engine rated at 1,500kg thrust. The engine had 700kg weight, 0.9m diameter and 2.1m length.

Due to the Lyulka engine release delays the Gu-VRD was never completed, staying however one of the world's first JET FIGHTER projects.


Technical data

Crew 1

Engines 1500kg Lyulka...? turbojet

Wing Area 11m2

Max.Weight 2,250kg

Speed (sea level) 870km/h (calculated)

Speed (6000 m) 900-1000km/h (calculated)

Climb to 5000m 1.39min

Range 700km

Endurance 1h

Landing Speed 141km/h

Take-off Run 222 m, later considered to be too optimistic

Armament 1x20mm ShVAK cannon 200rpg

1x12.7mm BS gun 200rpg


Based on "Samolyotostroyenie v SSSR (1917- 1945)" [Aircraft Development in the USSR], Vol 2, published by TsAGI in 1994. Prepared by Alexander Velovich.

GOLOVIN "IVS", Soviet WWII Tiny Rocket Interceptor




HISTORY. One of the most radical rocket aircraft projects was the Soviet "IVS/ISF" ("Army Escort Fighter"/"Navy Escort Fighter") design. It was proposed by military engineer Lev Golovin in 1941. Evidently, the world's smallest fighter was designed as a part of mobile launcher complex comprising a truck carrier, 5-8 meter launcher, fuel and ammunition stock, a winch and the fighter itself. A crew of three (pilot, mechanic, driver) was to operate this complex.

The IVS specifications were: Length - 3m, span - 1.75m, height - 1.05m, T/O weight - 250-300kg, Top speed - 1,060km/h Ceiling - 7,500m Engine - one Dushkin liquid-fuel rocket (300kg thrust), assisted during take-off by solid fuel rocket booster(s) (1,000kg thrust). Armament - single 20-mm ShVAK cannon Landing equipment comprised the 76 m² parachute and a belly skid absent on the Navy version. Pilot occupied prone position that reduced the g-load and enabled the climb rate of 250m/sec. The project was offered for series production but the VVS authorities rejected the idea of a mobile small interceptor in favor of anti-aircraft artillery.

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BMW Flugelrad III [Reconnaissance & Possibly a Bombing Platform as well]




A considerable interest in using a disc as a wing led to the idea of building the autogiro with the blades mounted so close to each other that they almost formed a disc. The BMW engineering team led by Dr. Miethe located near Prague studied several projects of such aircraft during WW II. All of them utilized the same construction layout: a disc of blades strengthened by the external ring was driven by the BMW jet engine(s). The main idea of this propulsion principle was the deflection of the exhaust gases upwards on the take-off to initiate the disc spin. After achieving 1650 to 1800 r.p.m. the pilot redirected the exhaust flow back- words and simultaneuosly changed the blades' pitch from -3 to +3 degrees and the machine jumped upwards. When reaching cruising height the blades were positioned in negative angle and the aircraft flew like a autorotating kite with a small angle of attack. The BMW "Flügelrad III" would have been the final production version of the series of experimental machines. Its propulsion system consisted of two second- generation turbojets, HeS.011 or BMW.018 with respective thrusts of 1,300 and 3,400 kg. The engines were located one above the other, seperated by the rotor plate. The nozzles diverted into two "Strahlrohr" pipes fitted with valves which allowed any kind of flight manoeuvering. The machine had two cockpits, each one for four crew members. The landing gear had four legs and was fully retractable into the lower fuselage portion. There is no technical data about armament, although the machine was capable enough of carrying biggest bombs or missiles in existance or being designed at the time, as well as impressive battery of reconnaissance cameras.

"Flügelrad III" data:

T/O weight.................40,000 kg | Rotor diameter..............24m | Height.........................11.2m | Top speed.............around 1,000km/h

* The information above is based upon the Dossier No.10 by Justo Miranda, C/Tutor 53 Bj-C, 28008, Madrid, Spain.



BMW Flügelrad 3 (kludged) The Flugelrads were a series of experimental craft that worked on the gyrocopter principle. A circle of blades are mounted on a ring around the body of the craft. The thrust from the Jet engine is directed up into the disk to start it rotating. In X-plane I used the pre-rotate switch to get the main rotor spining. The rotor blades can change pitch from -10 to +10 degrees and you can take advantage of autorotation to slow the decent of this craft. The original problems revolved, pun, around the problem of flight control. Ultimately they used fins and flaps in this version to control the thrust of the engines to change direction while in the air. The exhaust thrust from each jet engine was split, left and right. Direction control uses valves to alter the balance of thrust to steer left and right as well as altering the climb or dive of the craft by change the power balance between the top and bottom engines. Planned as a high altitude recon plane, but was never built. 8 crew, 4 upper deck/4 lower deck . Body dia: 18.5m, Rotor dia: 24m, weight: 40,000kg (XP version is lighter to enable flight). 2 x BMW 018 jets with 3,400kg thrust. The outer ring in this version is made up of wing sections to allow X-Plane to better calculate weight distribution etc. I have kludged a few things to get a controllable model flying, so don't be surprised when/if it breaks in future versions.


1.- Goto - http://www.geocities.com/unicraftmodels/uniphot2.htm

2.- Then scroll down a bit until you see 'Flugelrad III' click the picture to see larger pictures of this craft!.

Image will not send....



Some Interesting Reading For The Curious!.

SS Projects. Hitler's UFO Projects SS




Discussion Site: 'Above Top Secret'


Gazrok: posted on 16-6-2004 "The story goes, a UFO crashed in Germany in 1936, basically the German Roswell... Anyhoo, they (like us later) tried to reverse engineer it, resulting in NUMEROUS saucer shaped designs.... Hitler had a real hard on for the project. None ever really saw mass production though, as it was simply too advanced for them.

After the fall of Germany, Russia and the US were quick to snatch up the German scientists (ref project paperclip), and the rest is history. "

The_Squid: posted on 16-6-2004 "no its not actually that advanced! They had them before the 1940's as well!

The only REAL problem was that they found it a bit hard to control them... however they did have a fair amount of them, and were planning a mass attack with them on New York. However the russians shut them down about 3 months before they were to launch the attack. Anyway the way they flew was that they put an engine in the middle of the 'Flying Saucer' that sucked air around the 'Flying Saucer' to the underside of it and created a vacum above the 'Flying Saucer' and that made it rise and levitate."


MY OWN INTERPRETATION OF WHAT I HAVE READ...its probably not totally correct...but, hopefully will assist in understanding what is going on here:

" Actually it was just a little more complicated than that as will be explained in the next posting or two--'THE VORTEX'."

Basically there was an engine in the Vortex-Chamber that Swirled and vastly accelerated the Air-Medium...at a high enough revolution rate that it stripped the electrons out of the swirling air and sucked them down to the exhaust arpeture underneath the ship,...the light and rapidly accelerating negative-ions caused the air medium to rapidly accelerate very quickly to the exhaust port(Arpeture),...the positive electrons would reside on the outer circumference of this spinning vortex...in the Vortex Chamber...as they are much heavier and slower.

Also as the air was ejecting under high-compression through an aperture below the craft...it would now be much heavier than the air above the craft...the heavy air under the craft would now rapidy expand to reach normalization and as it did...it also created a powerful repulsive force that caused the craft to levitate.

Thats how i understand it so far!...right or wrong!...also i don't know if the negative-ions had any repulse effect on Earths magnetic field or not...if it did...it might have helped as well to assist in levitation.">From 'Latent Powers at Molecular Level'> "The electric force of repulsion outweighs the gravitational force of attraction in the ratio of 4.2 x 10 42 to one."


Haunebu II, II-DoStra_Do-Stra = DOrnier-STRAtosphärenflugzeug




Another Bizarre Concept :called 'THE ANDROMEDA GERAT-'Flying Cigar'.


Main page of the 'German Saucers index'.



The Andromeda was a craft with a Length of 139m (458ft) that was meant to transport troops, up to 5 saucers, and equipment. Could this plan have been used to create the cigar shaped ufos we see in the skies today?".

-HEY!....The 'Andromeda Craft' could be used to invade North Amerika...in conjunction with regular amphibious assaults!.

- Instead of it transporting Troops & Saucers...it could transport Troops & Heavy-Tanks instead!.

- This brings to mind the need for a 'UNIT- EDITOR"...the type where you could use a Digital Camera and take a picture of some Model with a black background (i think)...and shoot this Model from a certain number of specific views ...and then transfer these images from your Hard-Drive into the Unit Editor (where they could be colored/touched up/camouflaged etc...to be used in your own Icon inventory for your own games...like for an extension of SC2...'Conflict 1945 to 1955' or something like that!.

This way specific units like the Andromeda Craft and other Icon's could be created for use in Scenario or Campaign construction.

Reference: www.violations.dabsol.co.uk/ind2.htm ]

Secrets of the Third

[ July 14, 2004, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

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