This took some courage!!

[Tim S]

I found this on a Google search of the very odd looking Russian anti-tank rifle. The caption says it all. Unfortunately I can't show the photo but it's of a group of 4 soldiers prone, in the ankle(!)deep grass of the steppe, waiting for whatever may come their way! It's a photo right out of the CMBB Kursk scenario and the caption says it all....

Anti tank rifle teams wait for the German advance. A perfect illustration that no matter how bad your job is, someone had one worse....!

Apparently the PTRD-1941 anti tank rifle was about as good as a pea shooter against MK III's and up, although it had marginal success against I's and II's. This explains the lack of kills many have had using this weapon in the Demo.

Infantry anti tank weapons

[busboy]

Those men were recruited by General Vodka himself!

[MikeyD]

I recall one anecdote in a Jentz(?) Tiger tank book that has a Tiger doing infantry support during an advance and receiving over a HUNDRED anti-tank hits, including a very large number of anti-tank rifle hits to the cupola. PTRDs may not have been able to kill a Tiger, but that didn't keep 'em from trying!

[busboy]

In one of my books on the Tiger, there is a picture of a tiger that has at least 70 countable hits on the left side of the turret and hull alone. there are 2 fairly large gashes out of the zimmerett (sp) paste which the caption denotes as hits from th 45mm AT gun. One can only assume that some of the smaller dings were AT rifles.

It was an impressive picture...the caption noted that it was one of the first published photos of the Tiger tank, and was used as propaganda.

[Claus B]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I recall one anecdote in a Jentz(?) Tiger tank book that has a Tiger doing infantry support during an advance and receiving over a HUNDRED anti-tank hits, including a very large number of anti-tank rifle hits to the cupola. PTRDs may not have been able to kill a Tiger, but that didn't keep 'em from trying!

227 hits IIRC.

And don't underrate the PTRD. Of course it is not likely to turn a Panzer III into a furnace with one shot, but consider that the Germans considered it a big enough threat for them to hang about 600kg worth of steel plate on their tanks (Schürzen) in order to prevent the little 14.5mm AP rounds from penetrating the side armour of their tanks.

In a AAR from Stalingrad, the AT-rifle was rated as one of the greatest threats to tanks, showing that if the AT-rifle team can get close enough (IIRC recommended distance was 50-100 meters), it can be deadly. As AT-rifles are small, concealable, numerous, they might just inflict the death of a thousand cuts on your Panzer IIIs and IVs. At least before the spring of 1943 when Schürzen were introduced.

Dunno if it is refleced in the game though?

Claus B

[Ace Pilot]

Originally posted by Claus B:

And don't underrate the PTRD. Of course it is not likely to turn a Panzer III into a furnace with one shot, but consider that the Germans considered it a big enough threat for them to hang about 600kg worth of steel plate on their tanks (Schürzen) in order to prevent the little 14.5mm AP rounds from penetrating the side armour of their tanks.

I thought the schurzen skirts were developed to counter shaped charges like panzerfausts, by causing them to detonate early, releasing their chemical energy before hitting the main armor?

Any grogs know?

Ace

[V]

Originally posted by Tim S:

I found this on a Google search of the very odd looking Russian anti-tank rifle. The caption says it all. Unfortunately I can't show the photo but it's of a group of 4 soldiers prone, in the ankle(!)deep grass of the steppe, waiting for whatever may come their way! It's a photo right out of the CMBB Kursk scenario and the caption says it all....

Anti tank rifle teams wait for the German advance. A perfect illustration that no matter how bad your job is, someone had one worse....!

Apparently the PTRD-1941 anti tank rifle was about as good as a pea shooter against MK III's and up, although it had marginal success against I's and II's. This explains the lack of kills many have had using this weapon in the Demo.

Infantry anti tank weapons

did you mean this one?

saw someone already posted the pic...

[ September 06, 2002, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: V ]

[Mattias]

Originally posted by Ace Pilot:

A pretty well discussed subject. I think i it is safe to say that the general consensus here now favours the anti 14.5mm ATR theory.

There are not nearly as many facts supporting the idea that hollow charge round was the main impetus.

M.

[offtaskagain]

IIRC Guderian himself said Schurzen were to counter AT rifles, not shaped-charge weapons.

[Rifle]

You think this one is any better?

http://www.ankkurinvarsi.net/jaeger/AT_RIFLES2.htm

Boys AT Rifle ; According to my old man, it could only be fired prone. When fired it bodily lifted the gunner off the ground and dropped him straight down and onto his 'family jewels'.

Quite the incentive to engage the enemy!

Cheers,

Rifle

[Claus B]

Originally posted by Ace Pilot:

I thought the schurzen skirts were developed to counter shaped charges like panzerfausts, by causing them to detonate early, releasing their chemical energy before hitting the main armor?

Any grogs know?

Ace

That is a popular myth, probably originating with US Army intelligence being baffled about the plate-thingies hanging on German tanks. Even though they had good evidence as to the real reason for the German use of Schürzen (Soviet AT-rifles), they apparently had qualms about such an outdated weapon getting this much attention by the Germans and tried to convince themselves that the Mighty American Bazooka , being made in America, must have been the real reason.

Western post-war writers never had any doubt: The AT-rifle was an obsolescent and crude weapon, only too typical of the primitive Soviet system and thus not a threat to the Mighty German Panzer. Schürzen could only have been developed to defeat the Mighty American Bazooka .

That remained the explanation until someone tried to find out what the Germans themselves had thought of the matter and given as their reasons.

Even though thorougly debunked, the myth persists that Schürzen were made to counter the Mighty American Bazooka and as there is not a shred of contemporary German evidence supporting this, the supporters of this theory will use "logic" to prove that Schürzen were only usefull against HEAT-type weaponry, not AT-rifle bullets.

That is fine by me, as long as they dont use their "logic" when driving cars and handling firearms

For a less biased account of the discussion, check out the CMBO 2001 archive :

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=022044;p=

Claus B

[Mattias]

Originally posted by Claus B:

Phew, I got tired just by reading that thread.

Looking back I, for one, sound very aggressive but I think the point was made clear enough by the collective, in the end

M.

[Chad Harrison]

I dont know which one is worse, waiting with an anti tank rifle, or charging as part of a human wave with NKVD officers behind you with pistols!

Ill just be an engineer

Chad