Anti Tank Dilemma?? Long Range Attrition or Short Range Firestorm??

[Terence]

In Which I Crave the Reader's Indulgence

I'm just about to start playing a scenario in which I am the American defender. I have at my disposal a dug in company of infantry with an attached platoon of engineers, two FTs, two zooks and and 3 57mm anti tank guns. I'm going to be facing a fairly formidable force made up of at least a company of Motorized SS and some armor-- 5 or 6 units, mostly SP artillery and assault howitzers.

The terrain is pretty good (but not great) for defense. I defend high ground with a valley/tiny village in the center of the map.There are a number of good spots for the AT guns to be placed in concealment with good LOS , but on this flat map with few buildings in my setup area there just arent any really good places for keyhole sighting. So I can conceal the guns, but in two of the three cases, after they start shooting they won't stay concealed for very long. I can't see a way for the guns to be both useful and survive, so Im resigned to losing at least two of them but I want to make the enemy pay for it.

My question is this: Should I open up at longer range (600 - 800) meters or more and give away the location of my AT guns or wait for the enemy to get closer (200 - 300 meters) and then start shooting?. I've been weighing the relative merits for each approach and can't decide. In this case, a few extra seconds could make the difference between a failed German attack with no armor support and an effective German attack, backed up with armor.

(I plan to button up the enemy tanks with a mortar attack in any case.)

If I start shooting at long range, I stand a larger chance of missing at first, and revealing my position, at which point the enemy armor can pivot and blast me to bits, and escape possibly unscathed. Also, penetration will be a bit lower which reduces the chance of a first shot kill, especially against some of the tougher enemy AFVs. Also long range would seem to make it more likely that Ill be shooting at the front of the armor, which is usually thicker. Of course if the enemies are farther away, they may not see me as well when I do open up. And since they can't kill me if they can't see me, this is a big factor. Also at the start of the scenario, the enemy may very well be spread out and not be able to bring all of his guns to bear on my AT guns so I may be able to use my guns to defeat his force in pieces. Also, any suppressive fire and return fire will be a little less accurate at first due to the distance

If I start shooting at short range, my chances to hit and penetration will be higher and then I may be able to kill or disabler more enemy tanks faster. Of course if the bad guys are closer, then their spotting ability will be better. Also they will be concentrated in one spot and more able to mass fire on an AT gun and suppress it, and their suppression/return fire will be more accurate.

Let me know what you think, guys...

albest,

Terence

[Slapdragon]

With a heavier AT gun, or a mobile AT gun like the Archer, it is much different, but the 57mm just does not have a punch.

The first thing to understand about the 57 is that normally, it is a flank asset used to keep your units from getting exploited. Using them for a main force defense in the center is a risk, especially since they need infantry back up, only remain hidden while they have not fired, and are vulnerable to HE.

The ideal deployment is to figure out where the enemy must come to get a shot at the center of your defensive line near the flags. Place the AT guns so all three can sight this location without being sighted from the enemy. Ideally, these guns are placed more to the sides with security, and it would also be nice if they could cover your flanks individually.

The German player, if he is smart, will not just trundle up. You have no tanks to make it expensive on him, and nothing to disrupt his forces. You do, however, want to attack with all your weight at once, not peicemeal. Exposing 1 gun at a time is just asking for them to take you out in detail.

The rule of thumb is if everyone can fire, and that fire can be directed at a central location knocking out several units, fire at longer range. Soft sided, slower units can also be killed at long ranges. If not, spring the trap later, and just make sure that your infantry and dug in deep.

At close range, halftrack mgs and large cannon can be dealt with by the infantry better, but at long range a 57mm will loose against 5 halftracks and a mobile gun. It just has no protection.

Finally, make sure, if at all possible, you guns have a leader near them. They will stay in action far longer and do more damage. Remember though, they are essentially meat. The first hit has to be the best hit.

[jshandorf]

Thanks, Terrance for the compliment.

Here is what I think….

The first and foremost decision in regards to you AT assets is placement. A good placement of an AT gun is critical to it’s survival and overall usefulness. I am not sure if you will get any Tungsten rounds with your 57mms but if you do that can change things slightly. Anyway here is what I suggest:

Place your 57mms so that you can deliver enfilade fire on the attacker. This means place your 57mms so that they cannot be attacked form the front. Doing this gives you many advantages 1) being spotted from the front is impossible. 2) When you engage it will be with the armor’s side armor or possibly rear. 3) Being spotted by the enemy is reduced when you engage from the flank. 4) You will most likely be able to kill the first target AND engage the second target before any fire is brought to bear on you. 5) Over all you survivability is greatly increased.

Some things to remember:

1. ALWAYS, unless you want to take the risk, support your AT-Units with an infantry screen. What I mean is that for the attacker to reach your AT assets he should HAVE to go through some of your infantry/MGs/Mortars. Now depending on how you set up you MRL (Main Resistance Line) this should be a good thing for your AT Guns since when your enemy engages one flank of your MRL the opposite flank AT assets possibly can engage any armor that he brings up to support that attack and possibly get side armor shots.

2. Always try to engage armor that is buttoned or that is otherwise occupied. This will lower the armor’s reaction time and increase your survivability.

You asked about the ranges at which you should engage. I say that it is all relative. What really matters is your chance for success. If you have a high hit chance and have a good chance to kill then I say go for it. Otherwise I would wait. It also can depend on the threat level of the target. If your target is just sitting there and doing nothing but over-watching then it doesn’t really do much for you to engage that target yet. Waiting can give your opponent a false sense of security and confidence so that he might bring up more armor units and then try and move them out. Maybe at this point you now have a side shot at 3 armored units that just engaged your forward elements. At this point I would then fire since at that point you have all the advantages on your side while the attacker is at a severe disadvantage.

In essence your best bet is ambushing multiple AFVs and Tanks from the side once they have engaged your MRL or possibly you forward elements. Doing this will give you most bang for your buck with it comes to 57mms.

Hope this helps,

Jeff

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First of all, David, you stupid sot, if names were meant to be descriptive, everyone would have the, culturally appropriate, name of, "Ugly little purple person that cries and wets itself." -Meeks.

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

With a heavier AT gun, or a mobile AT gun like the Archer, it is much different, but the 57mm just does not have a punch..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, we can blame the scenario designer for that one.

QUOTE]

The rule of thumb is if everyone can fire, and that fire can be directed at a central location knocking out several units, fire at longer range. Soft sided, slower units can also be killed at long ranges. If not, spring the trap later, and just make sure that your infantry and dug in deep.

At close range, halftrack mgs and large cannon can be dealt with by the infantry better, but at long range a 57mm will loose against 5 halftracks and a mobile gun. It just has no protection.

Finally, make sure, if at all possible, you guns have a leader near them. They will stay in action far longer and do more damage. Remember though, they are essentially meat. The first hit has to be the best hit.

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf:

You asked about the ranges at which you should engage. I say that it is all relative. What really matters is your chance for success. If you have a high hit chance and have a good chance to kill then I say go for it. Otherwise I would wait. It also can depend on the threat level of the target. If your target is just sitting there and doing nothing but over-watching then it doesn’t really do much for you to engage that target yet. Waiting can give your opponent a false sense of security and confidence so that he might bring up more armor units and then try and move them out. Maybe at this point you now have a side shot at 3 armored units that just engaged your forward elements. At this point I would then fire since at that point you have all the advantages on your side while the attacker is at a severe disadvantage.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, in CM terms, one possible approach could be this: button the armor with a mortar barrage and then in the next turn have some of the other units open fire with mgs or whatever at some available enemy targets. The enemy will think -- "Silly sod, there he goes, shooting rifles and mg bullets at my tanks and HTs." And attack the dug ininfantry at long-ish range.

Then, when the armor is busily shooting at the entrenched infantry, focussing on that, the AT guns could open up taking advantage of the armor focus on other targets? If the AT guns are off on the extrme flanks, this will make them even harder to spot?

[Henri]

You say that the enemy does not have any heavy tanks, which means that you AT guns should be able to knock them off from any distance on a CM map.

There is a tutorial on defense by ScoutPL on the site http://www.geocities.com/fpd131/; read it and learn.

Avoid placing your guns where they can cover everything, because then they will be a target from everywhere. Use a keyhole defense,on the flank if possible. If not, covering likely avenues of approach.

Waiting too long has 2 risks: 1) your guns can be killed by infantry leading the tanks; 2) your guns can be killed by artillery before they can be used.Remember that if a gun kills a single tank in a balanced scenario, it has more than earned its keep. I would fire as soon as there is an excellent chance of a kill on a tank.

If your enemy is smart, he will stand off his tanks and lead with his infantry, pummeling your probable defensive positions with artillery. If his tanks come to within 300 m and he doesn't have infantry in front of them, he is stupid and deserves to lose. So if you wait untilhe is 300 m away, you have a good chance of being killed by nfantry before you can do much harm. However there is no hard rule -just try to get a minimum of one tank with each gun and you will have a significant advantage, because he spent a lot more points on the tanks than you did on the guns.

It's not always feasible to put your infantry in front of your guns; in the tutorial of ScoutPL, one gun was set ahead of the MLR. If your infantry is too far ahead, they may not be able to redeploy to adapt to the attack.

More important factors are to figure out the enemy's main lines of approach, to be able to guide him into predictable killing zones, and to be able to adapt to whatever situations comes up. Interior lines that are not visible to the enemy are very useful for redeployment.

Henri

[Guest Germanboy]

Hehe - flattery will obviously get you anywhere Terence. A good way to get people to reply though.

I feel there is very little to add to the advice given by my august colleagues. The most important thing is really that AT guns need screening, unless your opponent is a total moron. If I have a squad 200m away from an unscreened enemy AT gun, I have a squad 200m away from a dead AT gun. Screening can be achieved through overwatch, e.g. HMGs, LMGs (ever wondered why these were in the TO&E of German AT companies?) or even mortars with LOS to the area in front of the gun. You don't need to put a platoon there, just something to pin the potential attacker.

Regarding the question of when to open up - as soon as you can defeat the enemy armour strength, IMO. That keeps him away and more careful. He loses time, becomes timid and gives you more room for maneuver. If you disrupt his plans early, you gain a considerable advantage.

I usually use ambush settings to control when the gun should fire, not waiting until they are triggered (on larger maps) but checking every turn what can be done.

Hope that helps. Good luck.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Trooper]

I think the best thing was said near the beginning. Don't have your guns with LOS to the front.

Given the lack of hitting power of a 57 in the Grand Scheme of Things, you're most likely committed to a short-range fight. Reverse slope, hide beind a woods (with -your- infantry in said woods), anything to eliminate the possibility of overwatching units becoming an issue for you.

Also apply this to your infantry. Keep them (Barring maybe a single squad for observation purposes), on your edge of the forest. That way they won't get shelled.

NTM

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The difference between infantrymen and cavalrymen is that cavalrymen get to die faster, for we ride into battle!

[ScoutPL]

Not much to add here so I'll try to bring it all together.

Set up an engagement area that includes at least one of your Victory locations. Mass you AT assets around this EA and provide plenty of infantry protection. Use the rest of your asets to persuade or force your enemy to move into your EA. Do this by making him think you are strong in areas other then the EA. This will be hard to do with your limited assets. But perhaps after a good terrain study you will determine that he has few armor AOA's anyway. That'll make it alot simpler. Once he's in your EA hit him with the mortar fire to button him up and then hit with the AT guns, always attempt to get in flank or rear shots. So your EA may be a few hundred yards wide but as long as 500 yards. Use the terrain and foliage to conceal your guns from the enemy's perspective. Place hills and wooded areas between your guns and the enemy's map edge. This way once you open fire, only those units in your kill zone can bring your guns under fire. Be sure to provide an infantry screen to prevent him from bringing dismounts around your flank. Depending on how your map is set up this could be either really hard or really easy. The actual engagement ranges will depend on your EA. If you can stay concealed, the longer range shots are always better. Key points: good security, mass fires, and be willing to write some terrain off and take some risks. Good Luck!

By the way, I'll have another tutorial up in a day or so on how to set up a battalion defense. It gos in pretty deep on evaluating AOA's and EA's so hold tight, more help is on the way!

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Short answer - wait until he is close.

Long answer - you want at least two of the ATGs firing inward, toward each other, so that at least one of them has flank shots. The other can aim at weaker vehicles like half-tracks.

The best place to stage the ambush is near a "reverse slope" position for your infantry, whether an actual slope, back from a tree-line, or behind the forward buildings of the village. The idea is you'd like him to be in range of the infantry AT weapons (bazookas basically - the FTs have no range - and even the bazookas are only accurate enough at 100-125 yards) at the same time - which he is not going to be, unless he does not have LOS to your infantry positions unless he gets that close.

He'd rather stand off and blast you. So put the men in positions he can't see while standing way off. Your idea to button him up just before is a good one too.

When planning this kind of close to-do, though, there are a couple things to watch out for. The big one is the dismounted attack, with the infantry coming in well ahead of the tanks and clearing out your positions one by one as they come into LOS, until they get so close your ATGs have to open up, even with his vehicles at long range or mostly behind cover

About the only way to stop that is to have MG or infantry positions that can pin his infantry in open ground, but in locations where you can fall back afterward. If your MGs and infantry stay "forward" to stop a dismounted attack, his vehicles will eat them up from long range.

A second thing to avoid is convincing yourself he has to do something just because it would work better for you. Do not plan on a single "ambush" zone, but try to have at least two that will do the job. (Between ATG A and B, and between B and C for example, and in less-than-obvious locations). Because he is more likely to walk into one of two ambushes at a less-than-perfect location, than one at the most obvious danger zone on the map.

As for the question about better ATGs, if you had ones powerful enough to kill anything they fired at at any range or angle, then the best time to open up would just be "when most of his vehicles are within sight". You take your chances then, but 3 ATGs that kill with every hit can decimate an attacking vehicle force pretty darn fast, and not leave too many left to duke it out with.

The real difficulty high-powered ATGs face is that the vehicles can choose how many to engage or risk, simply by not moving into likely LOS areas all at once, then destroy each ATG with arty or whatever if they open up. But if he has most of his targets in the open and every hit is a kill, then fire at will.

The 57mm just isn't like that, unless his armor is all halftracks. It needs flank shot opportunities to penetrate many tank types, which means close is the only realistic answer. If his vehicles are all that light, by all means just wait until they are mostly all in sight, even at range, then open up.

[Mr. Clark]

I certainly cannot add more to the great tips already here, so I'll add a small side note instead...

If you fire from long or medium range, the enemy may not never see half of your guns, even if they miss or ricochete (sp?) the first couple of shots.

The last time I walked my tanks into a gun ambush, I only spotted one of the 4 or 5 guns firing at me.

Obviously, you cannot count on this...

but it may give you some comfort to know you're not automatically dead after that first missed shot.

[Holien]

After reading this I can see where I have recently gone wrong. I would add weight to the view that you don't put your guns in a position where it can cover a large amount of open ground.

The more open ground it can cover the more chance there will be multiple tanks / nastys that can fire at it.

Recently I sited an AT Gun to cover a wide open plain on the theroy that it could hit anything in the open. My mistake in this approach was that the one gun had 12 shermans on view.

My next mistake was to engage at long range in the view that they might not see me. I managed to get one Sherman but was then wiped by the others.

When I look at the map now I can see I would have been better to place it slightly more to the rear and at an angle to the town it was defending. This would have restricted the view and while reducing the targets, it would have survied longer and maybe killed more.

As for firing wait until they are as close as possible. Try and call down some Arty to button them and open up with some small arms fire to distract them. Once that happens you might get two or three in one go and if you are real lucky survie to get more.

You want the best hit probability possible and only engage if you have a good or better chance of penetrating.

I wish I had seen the advice above sooner...

H

[Guest wwb_99]

One neat ATG tactic I have used, but it might not apply to your current dilemma: shoot 'n scoot. It requires a little planning, but it quite effective. You need:

1) the ATG

2) Something that can fire smoke. An 81mm FO is great, direct fire or onboard mortars work as well.

3) a prime mover (truck or HT)

4) a reverse slope.

Place the ATG just at the crest of the hill, with the prime mover in the reverse slope. Make sure you can drop smoke in front if it, either with the spotter or with direct fire. If you use a spotter, you have to pre-spot the smoke mission so it will hit on the turn when you want to fire the ATG, preferably about 15 seconds in, because the smoke takes a little while to appear. When the smoke is about to come, open up with the ATG. With a little luck, you will get a kill or two and avoid being shot up by return fire. Once the smokescreen is in place, load the ATG on the prime mover, and fall back to a preselected spot. Repeat time permitting.

On a side note, I think field guns in CM really, really need a reverse command. It was not uncommon to site an ATG just at the crest of a hill, fire a few rounds then manhandle the thing out of sight before all hell broke loose. Right now you cannot do this in CM.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[Terence]

I just want to extend my deepest appreciation to all the folks who went to the trouble to answer my question in such detail.

I have a better understanding of the game, a deeper gratitude to BTS for producing such a quality product, and a fundamental relief that I was never so dense as to challenge any of you to a PBEM.

Thanks again,

Terence

[Juardis]

good thread. thanks

[109 Gustav]

Use your guns only on buttoned up targets. That way you can get off at least two good shots, and your opponent often won't have a clue where the fire was coming from. Regular sharpshooters are worth their weight in gold in buttoned tanks.

Crack 57mm guns give the best bang for the point values, IMHO. They have an incredible ROF, hit the target darn near every time, and when under CnC, are darn near invisible.

57mms are also better than 76mm guns for anything smaller than a panther. At 300m, they will penetrate a PzIVs or StuG's armor with ease. I'm currently playing a QB in which I got 3 of these popugns. Two regulars, one veteran. By only shooting when one of my guns could see just one target, I've bagged the grand total of a jagdpanther, a pair of StuGs, and two armored cars. My opponent only knows where two of the three guns are, too.

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But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

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