Juardis Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Not sure if it's a bug, but it seems like one to me. Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but I didn't see it in the bug list Matt posted. So here goes. Playing a QB PBEM battle. I'm being probed. I have a tank that's unbuttoned waiting for the enemy to show itself. My tank spots an infantry unit 440m away and buttons up. No shots were fired. My tank loses LOS of inf unit and unbuttons. A few seconds later a different inf unit comes into LOS 420m away. My tank buttons up again. What's up with that? I certainly don't want my tank to button and the likelihood of taking fire from 400+m away from a moving infantry squad is nonexistent. So I can see no reason that this is intentionally done. Thus I conclude it's a bug. BTW, my tank is in open ground. Anybody else see this before? [ November 13, 2002, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Juardis ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PondScum Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Does your tank have a one or two-man turret? On a lot of those the commander has to button up to fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterGoodale Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Yup. Just last night. My tank is rolling across open ground past a forest and spots enemy inf squad about 250M away. No shots fired but the tank buttons up and sits there (of course I told the tank to blast with HE next turn but still) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterGoodale Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Mine had a two man turret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 If it's a Russian 2-man turret the commander would have to button-up in order to fire on them. It's sorta a Catch-22 situation. If he stays unbuttoned you'll say "Why isn't my tank firing on the distant infantry?" If he buttons-up and still can spot the distant infantry someone will say "The T34's situational awareness is unrealistically high while buttoned!" I guess you should imagine your commander saying "Holy Crap! Infantry on the hill!" The turret hatch clangs shut, the commander slides into the gunner's seat and squints through the mediocre optics, and he says "Okay, now let's see if I can locate those guys again." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterGoodale Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Good point, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 T34/76's have HORRIBLE spotting once buttoned-up until late 43 or start of 44, IIRC. This is b/c of two factors: 1) 2-man turret- TC must button up when firing the main gun, since HE is the gunner. IIRC, this never goes away (T34/76 always has it), maybe until the T-34/85 which prolly has a 3-man turret. 2) No Cupola- severely limits tank spotting to sides and rear once buttoned up. Eventually I think that the T34/76s get this at some month or another. For spotting, best early war Sov tanks are the KVs- they have radios and cupolas, but still just the 2-man turret I think. Also, the T34/76 has no radio until somewhere around late 43 or early 44, so as soon as they button, they go out of C-and-C and a far more vulnerable to bailing out due to non-lethal hits (assuming that they were part a a "real" tank Plt), not to mention bad command delays, no morale effects from HQ, etc. The radioless, 2-man turreted T34/76s can be tricky to use when they are a "real" Platoon. This can make one spring for the KV-1 (radio, cupola, 3-man) or down for some other ones like IIRC the SU-76 which has some better features at the cost of armor protection, and an MG methinks. [ November 12, 2002, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Many people would be surprised if they knew how bad the situational awareness in a tank was once the hatches were closed. I can only recommend the tank sim Panzer Elite. Already a bit dated but still good for showing the principles of WWII armour combat. When inside the buttoned up tank you really get that claustrophobic feeling of being in an iron coffin, no space to move, surrounded by ammunition... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted November 12, 2002 Author Share Posted November 12, 2002 Hmmmm, good point about the 2 man turret. I'll have to check tonight. But yes, I am the russkies and it's early to mid-war (42 or 43, can't remember). I guess I never thought of that but it does make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 KV's had 3-man turrets all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 I think this is the Soviet 2-man turret "Jack in the box" syndrome. It's funky, but I think it's also right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THumpre Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 I'm glad to see this phenomenon myself, it highlights a real tactical disadvantage that the Russians had to contend with, and doesn't just make their "chance to hit" worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 KVs had 3 man turrets but the commander wasn't positioned over the roof hatch! An awkward situation. I can't recall, was he still a commander/gunner despite the 3 man turret crew? In a past thread I was lobbying for adding a LONG lag time between buttoning and firing for KVs in the next patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted November 13, 2002 Author Share Posted November 13, 2002 Update - not a bug. Checked last night, 2 man turret T26/M33. Buttons when he targets, unbuttons when he loses LOS. Most frustrating. Should I just leave it buttoned you think? Seems like it would shoot sooner if I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterGoodale Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 hmmm this is tricky. I would say that ity's realistic the way it works for sure. I had a tank do it last night and he buttoned up and then next turn blasted the foxhole good. It makes sense that if he loses LOS he will unbutton to look around or carry forward as there may be other enemy units within LOS now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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