Using Panzerfausts

[PvK]

Anyone have extensive experience getting units to use panzerfausts? Or is there a thread on it somewhere?

My limited experience so far is that I have tried to have veteran panzerfaust-armed squads sneak up on tanks they or others have spotted very near by, when there is woods and/or bocage cover. I have them move towards the tanks, the tanks see my men, turn their turrets, use commander MG and generally get off deadly fire on my troops before my troops manage to attack, and then my troops start hurling hand grenades, which actually turns out to be fairly effective, after the lob & timer delay, during which time they are getting shot. They don't use their panzerfausts, though. In fact, the only time I've seen my men use a panzerfaust was on enemy infantry... :-P

My experiences here were limited in number, so maybe I've merely been unlucky. Is there a trick to getting units to use their panzerfausts? Do the units need to not be moving? Are panzerfausts unable to fire through bocage?

Thanks for any info,

PvK

[Jarmo]

I've had good succes with fausts. No real trick to it,

just getting close enough to the target.

I think targeting the vehicle you want destroyed, makes

the fellas more likely to faust it.

Experienced troops use fausts better, but they do everything

better anyway.

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Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of

our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir?

[Michlos]

I have noticed that the best way to use PF is to place them where the enemy is most likely to move his tanks.

I know this sounds like a DOH comment but hear me out. I have noticed that its much better to place the PF so that the tanks will come driving against it instead of trying to hunt them down.

[Buckeye]

I think that's right. I've seen fausts used more often when the armor stumbles on my infantry. It is then akin to an ambush (even if you don't use that command). It helps if they are in prepared positions (i.e., foxholes), and in CC.

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"Don't lie to me, Gustav! You're a stinkin' Mac user!"

[109 Gustav]

I usually try to get pfs real close to the tank, like 10-20 yards, and by the tank's flanks or rear. It takes some time to launch pfs, too. The rest of the squad has to move away, and the soldier with the pf has to drop his rifle and get the pf off his back to fire.

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There is nothing certain about war except that one side won't win.

-Ian Hamilton

[PvK]

Ah, ok. It sounds like my mistake (as far as the game goes) is trying to hunt with them. That is, I've been having my units move towards the tanks, instead of just facing them and waiting for them to come to me.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

I usually try to get pfs real close to the tank, like 10-20 yards, and by the tank's flanks or rear. It takes some time to launch pfs, too. The rest of the squad has to move away, and the soldier with the pf has to drop his rifle and get the pf off his back to fire.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya, I imagined my men realizing they were going to be needing to use the panzerfaust, since they could hear the tank, and thus spreading out in advance and carefully approaching the tank, being ready to attack it right away. I guess we tend to imagine our guys knowing what we want them to do. <g>

Thanks for the replies, folks!

PvK

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

try a late war battle and give your troops 100m panzerfausts, and Ambush the enemy. You will see their magic quickly. early war you have to be VERY sneaky, but if you don't have the firepower or luck then there is nothing you can do.

[Michlos]

I have found one way to use PF that have yet failed me. The idea is to find a road lined with trees that will be a likely route for the enemy's tanks. I place my PF a little off to the side (see scetch below) to be able to cover the road but still be out of sight.

XIIX

XIT

XIIX

XII

XIIXPF

XII

XIIX

X= Tree

II= Road

T= Tank

PF= Panzer Faust

When the tank passes the second tree from the top he will be fully exposed to the PF while having little or no time to turn his turret to face this new threat.

[This message has been edited by Michlos (edited 09-05-2000).]

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PvK:

Anyone have extensive experience getting units to use panzerfausts? Or is there a thread on it somewhere?

PvK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Youy just need a bit of luck; I have had a Panzerfaust or Panzerschreck (range 100 m) pick off a Sherman from the front from 140 m!

Same with bazookas. Last week in a pbem game, a Panther was attacked from the side by a Sherman and a Priest, who only managed to bounce shells off the Panther's side , finally immobilizing it with a track shot, while the Panther destroyed them both with one frontal shot each :rolleyes . It looked pretty bad, but bazooka team put a shell through the front armor of the Panther from 50 m away, destroying it with the first shot.

Your infantry has a much better chance of destroying an enemy tank if it is being distracted by something else and/or if the tank is buttoned. Advancing a Panzerfaust team against an unbuttoned tank that is not busy is pretty much a suicide mission. The eagle-eyed tank commander knows that a nearby infantry unit is just as deadly as a tank and will act accordingly...

Henri

[spcwrnglr]

Germans carry Panzerfausts, Americans carry Rifle Grenades. Will someone please tell me what a Rifle Grenade does? Does it just shoot a little farther than a hand thrown grenade? Does it have any affect whatsoever against tanks?

[Buckeye]

A rifle grenade is essentially a grenade that has a propellant. It can take out AFVs, although it depends on the thickness of the armor. It is not nearly as much of a tank killer as a faust.

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"Don't lie to me, Gustav! You're a stinkin' Mac user!"

[MichaelU]

In a PBEM game my opponent took out my Panther from the side with a rifle grenade. Ouch. He must have got pretty lucky though.

[Gunsmithcat]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MichaelU:

In a PBEM game my opponent took out my Panther from the side with a rifle grenade. Ouch. He must have got pretty lucky though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have noticed this happening, and was surprised at the frequency. Are rifle grenades tipped somehow, or are they a shaped charge?

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"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

[IntelWeenie]

Rifle grenades im CM have a small shaped charge warhead. Of course, historically, the varieties were numerous and varied wildly.

I was feeling generous, so I did a search for you.

From this thread: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/004564.html

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:Rifle grenade penetrates (approx) 60mm. Panzerfaust penetrates (approx) 215mm. These values are against unsloped armor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses.

-Dudley Do-right

[Juardis]

The reason ambushes work well for using fausts and rifle grenades is because usually they won't fire them if they are taking fire. If you remain hidden, you're not taking fire, and you have time to fire one provided you're within range.

Thanks for the rifle grenade penetration, I hadn't seen that. Do you know the range for the rifle grenades?

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Jeff Abbott

[IntelWeenie]

I didn't come across any 'hard' figures for rifle grenade range in CM when I found the pen. value, but I think some people claimed about a 40m working range.

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Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses.

-Dudley Do-right

[Juardis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IntelWeenie:

I didn't come across any 'hard' figures for rifle grenade range in CM when I found the pen. value, but I think some people claimed about a 40m working range.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that's what "seemed" to be the range the TacAI would engage at. So roughly 40m and a penetration of 60mm. Indeed best to get a top shot from a concealed position with rifle grenades. Fausts on the other hand are very scary to the allies

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Jeff Abbott

[PvK]

Ok, I tried again to use a Panzerfaust. Last time, there was a Sherman on the other side of the bocage and we threw grenades and immobilized it. This time, I had three half-squads and a schreck team move up. All units were veterans in command control by an excellent leader with +2 attack and +2 stealth ratings. First, one half-squad ran in front of the tank, but behind the bocage - the tank either didn't detect them or didn't care. A few seconds later, the half-squad with the panzerfaust ran forward to within 20m of the tank and stopped, in the open facing the side, with bocage in the way but in LOS. This half-squad fired small arms at the tank, causing it to button up. A couple of seconds later, the tank spotted that half-squad and turned the turret and fired back with the coax MG, having no apparent effect. The half-squad with the panzerfaust was sitting in place at 20m facing the tank's side for sixteen seconds, receiving one burst of MG from the tank after a few seconds, but it never used it's Pzfaust - it didn't throw grenades either, nor did another half-squad without a pzfaust that came up on the other side. After the pzfaust had failed to fire for 16 seconds, the tank was KO'd by a panzerschreck team about as soon as it arrived in LOS.

I wonder if maybe units that move won't fire panzerfausts. On the other hand, I've only tried this a few times, so even though I've always failed to get them to use pzfausts, I may have just been unlucky.

PvK

[Von Brizee]

I think the problem could be your halfsquads.

Half-squads always perform worse than full squads. They react slower,shoot worse (and not just because they have only half the firepower, they just do WORSE), and panic easier. Keep your squads full and you should get some more success

[PvK]

I suppose that's an idea, though I question whether it would be accurate if so, since Panzerfausts are one-man weapons, and in sneaking up to PzF a tank, in real life I wouldn't drag the whole squad along.

I'm tempted to run a series of tests. I still haven't done this very many times.

Last time I sent them in as a couple of full squads, and took two casualties, but maybe it was because (assuming Juardis is correct that PzF's won't be used while under fire), they were taking some fire and/or losses (although they weren't pinned or taking cover).

PvK

[Get Some]

In response to those half squads not using their pazerfausts: Did they have LOS to the Sherman?? They need that to fire their faust. How was their morale? They aren't going to do u any good if they're taking cover. Are u sure they had fausts? This would appear in the unit info box. When sneaking or moving up to a tank be sure to target it so they know to use the faust.

Last nite my PBEM opponent was bringing up a Tank Destroyer on my left flank, the TD began firing it's machinegun at my platoon in some woods. But the turn before I had one squad (Veteran) Run up to a group of trees almost directly in front of the TD, they got shot at by the TD, but they returned fire from close range, made it button up, then ran a little more and shot it's faust and knocked it out with a front turret penetration. Then they killed the crew as they crawled out. I didn't even tell the squad to target the TD yet because I was just trying to get them into a good reverse slope ambush position for a possible faust attack the next turn. But my opponent moved his TD up close and into range, so they got him from about 30 meters away.

[PvK]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Get Some:

In response to those half squads not using their pazerfausts: Did they have LOS to the Sherman?? They need that to fire their faust. How was their morale? They aren't going to do u any good if they're taking cover. Are u sure they had fausts? This would appear in the unit info box. When sneaking or moving up to a tank be sure to target it so they know to use the faust.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, they had LOS to the tank and yes they had fausts and even though the tank fired first, and eventually killed a couple of men, except possibly in my first experience, the men didn't go to ground, despite being shot at accurately at close range with 75mm HE.

Targetting may be helpful in getting them to use a faust, but it's not necessary. I just had another experience where my opponent charged two Shermans carrying infantry into my bocage line where I had a 3-squad platoon, and each squad had a 30m panzerfaust. On the first turn, neither of the two units with LOS fired their fausts. At the start of the second turn, only one of my squads had LOS, and I targetted the tank. That squad did not fire the faust, and was quickly wiped out by the tank. However the third squad then arrived and fired its faust. The second squad I had simply turned to face where the other tank would appear, and it fired its faust.

All in all, it appears to me to be a luck thing. I think it helps to not be under fire. It may also help to have decent fausts - I think in all of these cases except the one where my troops fired a faust at an infantry unit, I only had 30m fausts.

PvK

[RudeLover]

It takes some stones to use a 30 m 'faust. (I don't think I'd want that job...) Poor-quality troops (green/conscript) or troops under fire (shaken, etc) often can't pull themselves together to do it. Sneaking up doesn't seem to be as effective as ambushing. Leaders help, but I think a +2 morale would be worth more than a +2 attack. Could be worth a test...

[PvK]

Ya, although in my cases, my men were all Veteran quality level, and the force morale level was over 80%, and except for the cases where the tanks themselves fired, the units weren't suffering any other abuse. The lesson I think is that you really can't count on them to use the fausts, especially if they'll come under fire. Not at all like the way Panzerschreck teams behave. Having better than 30m fausts may help a lot (probably does).

PvK

[Von Brizee]

Those 100m Fausts sure are fun! Waste tanks from LONG range!