WWII footage of axis crew trapped in burning tank

[Gryphon]

There's a big difference between a make believe hollywood killing and footage of someone actually dying. People freak because American kids are exposed to the dramatised hollywood stuff, but other kids, all over the world, are seeing the real thing. Does it screw them up?

What's the difference between a hollywood killing and real footage to a 5 year old?

Travel to the nearest African country where there is a civil war and ask a child that has to serve/ served in a rebel army.

Also i don't think most (any) people from this board let their children watch Predator or Terminator or even the news.

But then again, this thread wasn't about hollywood. I just think it's not right watching stuff like this and go like, "oooh, that's interesting, yes, let me rewind that." a little bit humanity is in order.

Edit: Or am i being too idealistic?

Regards,

Gryphon

[ May 23, 2002, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Gryphon ]

[RCHRD]

No, I don't think you're being too idealistic. I don't like that stuff either, but it seems we've entered a new era. War on the home front. These kinds of things are in our future, maybe lots of them.

[GenSplatton]

This footage was also seen on the History Channel show "Suicide Missions: Tanks!" that aired a few months back. That is probably where several of you saw the unedited version.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Patgod:

make no mistake, many people my age(17-21) are very desensitized to seeing death. i dont know how different i, or the people i know would react to seeing someone die in real life. but of the people i know, only 1 or 2 are really affected by seeing someone die on camera(i'm talking CNN, the RVN officer shooting the guy in vietnam that sort of thing).

its kinda scary, but its what is.

He wasn't an ARVN officer, he was the Chief of Police, I believe of Hue City, and his family had just been executed by the VC

You are correct about desensitization, but I still view that Panther video and think "wow, those poor bastards." The video is gripping because you KNOW this was real.

I would watch the same thing in SPR for example, and wonder how the special effects guys did it. Would be completely different to me, which is why this "actual footage" is a very interesting thing to preserve. And why it bothers me that some morons on a website like that would fool around with it, and change it around as if it wasn't disturbing enough on its own and they felt the need to "improve" the shock value or something stupid like that.

[Sir Uber General]

Well said MD.

[GreenGriffon]

Originally posted by Cyrus Logan:

ok..... green griff you have proven useless in my question, im not watching this video in hopes to masterbate and cheer at the carnage, im vastly interested in footage of actual engadgement of knocking out of tank armor in circa ww2 period.... lose the drama queen act, anyone got a link to the full video ? cheers

LOL I've proven myself useless in answering your question? I won't dignify that with a response.

Maybe I didn't answer your question because I just returned home a little while ago. Then again in light of your unbelievably rude post, I still would have ignored your question anyway.

Grow up.

GG

[Sir Uber General]

Well said GG

[Aloid]

After looking around on that site, I can understand why any thread with a link to it would be locked. It's sick, not so much the video posted about originally, but the rest of the site.

Yes, REAL war is disgusting. However, that site has links to tortures, killings, and a host of horrid video, that THIS site has no business being associated with.

Hello mom!

Aloid

[GreenGriffon]

Oh for chrissakes.

Of course nobody could just take a look at the video like I asked. I specifically said "ignore the site" but you just can't HELP but follow the link, and then moan about how repulsive the host is.

YES Ogrish.com (from the little I saw of it) is absolutely repugnant...I think we've already established that. But I am NOT trying to "associate" this forum with that hell-hole of a website. And I didn't realize that pointing out a WWII clip HOSTED by Ogrish was going to mean that now I CONDONE that site and all it stands for.

Just look at the friggin' VIDEO! Is that so hard to accomplish??

As for Gryphon's comment about the poor "young men struggling for their lives" in the burning Panther, yes war is certainly a horrible thing and any human suffering is without question even more terrible. But to put it mildly, I don't think that anyone who stood up and fought on behalf of the Nazi regime deserves the same level of compassion afforded to every other human being.....but maybe that's just me. So regrettably I can't say that I share your sympathy for them; I personally hope they suffered as they roasted in that tank. Please forgive my rather strong moral view on this topic.

Somebody please lock this one up. I had no idea what kind of ridiculous debacle this would turn into. This was the last straw for me.

Thanks for all the great conversations over the past 2 years. Michael Dorosh, you're probably responsible for at least HALF of any knowledge I have of World War II history, so thank you in particular. And I can't thank all the modders enough.

Enjoy CMBB everyone.

GG

[flamingknives]

With respect to the Hollywood/real violence debate, is it better or worse that a great many films show the act of violence, but not the consequences?

For example, James Bond runs out of a Russian barracks, shooting all and sundry, who fall over in neat piles and are forgotten. This is considered to be 'better' than SPR, which shows what happens when people are hit by automatic weapons fire.

It also disturbs me that society is happy enough to show explosive removal of life and limb, but balks at the portrayal of the human form.

[Gryphon]

I don't think that anyone who stood up and fought on behalf of the Nazi regime deserves the same level of compassion afforded to every other human being.....

I find that particularly one sided. So every German should suffer when dying? Not everyone was a member of the NSDAP. And even if they were

what does it matter.

The allies did some disgusting things too. The Russians in Nemmersdorf, Ukraine, Berlin. And the western allies in Dresden. So ALL allies should suffer when they die too?

Germany was raped by the versailles treaty after ww1. I can pretty much understand why someone would join the Wehrmacht or WAFFEN-SS for that matter. (edit: excl. Reguliere SS & SS Polizei etc)

Regards,

Gryphon

[ May 24, 2002, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: Gryphon ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by Gryphon:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I don't think that anyone who stood up and fought on behalf of the Nazi regime deserves the same level of compassion afforded to every other human being.....

I find that particularly one sided. So every German should suffer when dying? Not everyone was a member of the NSDAP. And even if they were

what does it matter.

The allies did some disgusting things too. The Russians in Nemmersdorf, Ukraine, Berlin. And the western allies in Dresden. So ALL allies should suffer when they die too?

Germany was raped by the versailles treaty after ww1. I can pretty much understand why someone would join the Wehrmacht or WAFFEN-SS for that matter. (edit: excl. Reguliere SS & SS Polizei etc)

Regards,

Gryphon</font>

[Gryphon]

Edit: No problem, apology accepted

Regards,

Gryphon

[ May 24, 2002, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: Gryphon ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by Gryphon:

You must be kidding me.. comparing me with a terrorist. This must be the counter-strike board.

Gryphon

Sorry, I did not mean you. The original remark I am refering to was made by GreenGriffon.

I thought I had proof read it to iron out the warts but looking at it again I see where I made the error. I will amend my post.

[Aloid]

Originally posted by GreenGriffon:

Oh for chrissakes.

Of course nobody could just take a look at the video like I asked. I specifically said "ignore the site" but you just can't HELP but follow the link, and then moan about how repulsive the host is.

GG

Hey GG, you're absolutely right. Sorry I ragged on as I did. I had just come off that site, and was really uptight about it.

We're assuming that we're all grown-ups and can handle things like this. AND we DO have the choice not to look at what's on that sight.

Given that, there is still something about knowing that sight even exists that bothers me... but it's a free country (internet), and a lot of people died to keep it that way!

Peace! (and war games!)

Aloid

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by GreenGriffon:

[QB]As for Gryphon's comment about the poor "young men struggling for their lives" in the burning Panther, yes war is certainly a horrible thing and any human suffering is without question even more terrible. But to put it mildly, I don't think that anyone who stood up and fought on behalf of the Nazi regime deserves the same level of compassion afforded to every other human being.....but maybe that's just me. So regrettably I can't say that I share your sympathy for them; I personally hope they suffered as they roasted in that tank. Please forgive my rather strong moral view on this topic.

I am willing to forgive...but never to forget. It's not so black and white as that, and it is hard not to get swept up by the attractive things about Nazi Germany - the social order, the nice uniforms, the competent military and romanticized militarism. In the end, they fought so that 10 million people could be slaughtered in gas chambers and mass shootings, but...there is always the question of who knew what, when.

Personally, my God tell me that it is not right to wish for people to suffer in any circumstance. That goes for AH himself and all his sick-hearted minions - I am certainly glad they are dead, and proud of my countrymen who helped make that so. But wishing for them to suffer makes me no better than them. Again, just my own opinion.

Thanks for all the great conversations over the past 2 years. Michael Dorosh, you're probably responsible for at least HALF of any knowledge I have of World War II history, so thank you in particular. And I can't thank all the modders enough.

We thank you in return for your friendship and hope you will be back once you've had a chance to cool down. I'm almost sure you will - we all get frustrated, and all get mad enough to leave at time. When you do come back (and I hope you will), you will be welcome.

]

[GreenGriffon]

Originally posted by Gryphon:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I don't think that anyone who stood up and fought on behalf of the Nazi regime deserves the same level of compassion afforded to every other human being.....

I find that particularly one sided. So every German should suffer when dying? Not everyone was a member of the NSDAP. And even if they were

what does it matter.

The allies did some disgusting things too. The Russians in Nemmersdorf, Ukraine, Berlin. And the western allies in Dresden. So ALL allies should suffer when they die too?</font>

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by GreenGriffon:

I said very clearly (I thought) that I have no sympathy for anyone who stood up and fought ON BEHALF of the Nazi cause. [/QB]

But that is the problem - how do you distinguish the ones that picked up a gun "for Hitler's cause" from those that picked up a gun for other reasons? There were a million reasons to join the ARmy, no matter what country. Few Canadians, for example, fought because they loved the King of England. Some had no job and no money, others left high-paying jobs because the war looked like it would be fun, others genuinely hated Hitler and what he was doing.

I am sure many Germans hated Hitler but loved their country...and were probably indifferent to the fate of Jewish people and what a German victory would likely mean to them.

Do we blame them, too? I don't think there is an answer to that, but I am not German, either, so I understand why this would be a more emotional issue for you.

There is no correct answer, unfortunately.

[GreenGriffon]

Originally posted by Aloid:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GreenGriffon:

Oh for chrissakes.

Of course nobody could just take a look at the video like I asked. I specifically said "ignore the site" but you just can't HELP but follow the link, and then moan about how repulsive the host is.

GG

Hey GG, you're absolutely right. Sorry I ragged on as I did. I had just come off that site, and was really uptight about it.

We're assuming that we're all grown-ups and can handle things like this. AND we DO have the choice not to look at what's on that sight.

Given that, there is still something about knowing that sight even exists that bothers me... but it's a free country (internet), and a lot of people died to keep it that way!

Peace! (and war games!)

Aloid</font>

[acrashb]

Originally posted by GreenGriffon:

Oh for chrissakes.[...]But to put it mildly, I don't think that anyone who stood up and fought on behalf of the Nazi regime deserves the same level of compassion afforded to every other human being.....but maybe that's just me.

Regarding your first comment, yep, you're right.

Regarding your second, you couldn't be more wrong - because not all of the regular members of the German armed forces fought "on behalf of the Nazi regime", knowing what the regime stood for. Case in point: my father-in-law, who today walks with difficulty due to a parachute-related injury and has a scar in his scalp from a grenade fragment, joined up before the war because he needed a job and he could play an instrument - so he was in the band, served out most of the war doing garrison duty in Norway and then got tossed into the eastern front (which he won't talk about). And many others were simply drafted. Should they have all been a little smarter about what the NAZI regime stood for? Yep. And then what? Become 'concientous objectors'? In western armies, you get to do kitchen duty in that role. But not in the German armed forces during WWII - you got shot (it was a common sentence for desertion, which helped to keep desertion at much lower levels than in the American army).

While the NAZI's were pretty open about most of their program (which had a lot of sympathy elsewhere in the world, decried by some as in the right vein, but too loud and rude), they concealed mass killings and related atrocities. The average German soldier might be fighting for the fatherland - for the wrong reasons, granted - but not knowing the implications.

You may want to re-think your sense of who does and does not deserve some compassion for their suffering. Many of the ones who don't were hanged at Nuremberg. Most of the rest joined the French Foriegn Legion to escape trial or simpler forms of justice, where they were gladly accepted.

[Cyrus Logan]

Originally posted by Spanish Bombs:

There is a lot more footage of this, including the Americans climbing out of the Sherman that is originally taken out by the Panther. At least one of the American tankers has lost a foot, and its pretty gritty footage seeing him climb out of the tank.

There was a Tom Hanks hosted show on combat filmmakers a year back or so, I think I may still have it on tape. It has an interview with the guy who filmed this footage. I recall a couple of things: 1) the guy called the Panther a "Tiger" 2) the guy said that the German commander had lost his legs before climbing out of the turret, and did not survive. In fact I think he said that the commander's body was on top of the burning tank. 3) the Panther burned for a few days.

BTW, I know the site with the link is pretty odious, but I would hope the topic/footage itself isn't worthy of a lock. I find the footage to be some of the most amazing combat film I've ever seen, and after all most of us are knocking out Shermans and Panthers in CM on a daily basis.

please can you direct me to a link to where i can download this clip, again i repeated the question and pseudo-soap like drama discussions continue about death,life, babies, rainbows, Lifetime Network, im really sorry death doesnt bother me maybe because i have seen it every day on tv and even though its hollywood watching real footage ala ogrish.com or faces of death, its quite similair someones died. im not crying, sorry they died, im interested . not a freak, not "into" death, just curious, if you have the link please post it if not please carry on the discussions of life liberty and droping the soap on another thread for the love of god

[GreenGriffon]

Originally posted by Cyrus Logan:

please can you direct me to a link to where i can download this clip, again i repeated the question and pseudo-soap like drama discussions continue about death,life, babies, rainbows, Lifetime Network, im really sorry death doesnt bother me maybe because i have seen it every day on tv and even though its hollywood watching real footage ala ogrish.com or faces of death, its quite similair someones died. im not crying, sorry they died, im interested . not a freak, not "into" death, just curious, if you have the link please post it if not please carry on the discussions of life liberty and droping the soap on another thread for the love of god[/QB]

Once again, you deserve to be ignored. And considering the fact that at the very heart of this discussion is the value of life and the trajedy of death, maybe it's YOU who should remove yourself from this thread (and god willing, this entire forum).

Maybe one day you'll catch a bullet in the teeth while someone else is filming it, and some callous jack-ass like yourself will download it and think it's "cool".

One can only hope.

GG

[ May 24, 2002, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: GreenGriffon ]

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Whoa! This place is flame central! I was gonna comment on some of the disgusting crap on that site, but I want to live past 29! *Backs out of room quietly and sheepishly*

Hi Mom!

[ May 24, 2002, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Vader's Jester ]

[Cyrus Logan]

My your a depressing individual, must you rant on and on like some depressing forum troll defendinf what you think is proper, let me restate.... im not watching this video chuckling "cool" as i have already wrote not once but twice.. if your going to camp a forum like a farmer be sure to erad what others write before attempting to flame them chief. Second if i was shot in the teeth and killed. (woa there buddy little excess violence for someone who preserves life on such a high level!) and someone filmed it and i was downloaded by some teen who then said "cool" i wouldnt care... at all.... know why? im dead.

that being said,

Hi Mom!

[GreenGriffon]

Originally posted by Cyrus Logan:

My your a depressing individual, must you rant on and on like some depressing forum troll defendinf what you think is proper, let me restate.... im not watching this video chuckling "cool" as i have already wrote not once but twice.. if your going to camp a forum like a farmer be sure to erad what others write before attempting to flame them chief. Second if i was shot in the teeth and killed. (woa there buddy little excess violence for someone who preserves life on such a high level!) and someone filmed it and i was downloaded by some teen who then said "cool" i wouldnt care... at all.... know why? im dead.

LOL and this is coming from the same person who earlier made a statement about masturbating to the combat footage I posted. I think you've already established on 3 separate occasions who the sick individual is in this discussion. I should have realized sooner that the title of this thread alone was going to be an idiot-magnet (everyone but Cyrus excluded, of course ).

That being said, why don't you hop on over to the Soldier-of-Fortune 2 forum and giggle with the other 12 year-olds about how cool the dismemberment features are. Leave the intellectual conversations around here to the adults.

GG