P5 Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 I saw a book called Berlin 1945, at the bookstore today, by Anthony Beevor. At least I enjoyed his last book, Stalingrad. I was just wondering has anyone read Berlin 1945, because it's a bit expensive book and I would like to hear comments about it before spending some more money. Yeah I know. This is not the library & reading forum and to make this message little less OT, how about scenario pack: Berlin 1945. Samekind that they are doing about Stalingrad at the moment? Altough not full of so interesting and equally matched battles, but to this scenario pack could be included the battles in and around Berlin during that year. And at least I would enjoy watching Soviets bringing some heavy caliber guns around the corner and starting to shoot the house down where my troops currently are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlord69 Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 Well than I got a scenario for you. "The Last Battle". As the Russians its your job to capture the Moltke bridge, then Gestapo HQ and then you try and assault the Reichstag. How is that for fun? Its coming along pretty well. Just need some playtesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P5 Posted October 17, 2002 Author Share Posted October 17, 2002 Certainly sounds like a fun. From a German viewpoint. I must be a masochist, but I do enjoy battles (In computer games) when there is almost no hope in sight. I played Berlin scenario in Steel Panthers so much that I can still remember the map of that scenario. I can try your scenario if you send it to me. kimmo.nummela@kolumbus.fi [ October 17, 2002, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: P5 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akdavis Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 I'm almost finished with The Fall of Berlin and I highly recommend it. Probably the most comprehensive history of the battle/last days of the Third Reich to date. Don't expect a detailed military history, though, as Beevor draws on many political and civilian perspectives as well. One of his central focuses seems to be the problem of rape in liberated territory. He can come off as somewhat biased towards the German people at times, but he does a better job of addressing German atrocities than he did in Stalingrad. Wherever possible, he makes use of first-hand accounts, making for a very compelling read. My only complaint would be that the fighting within Berlin is somewhat neglected, making the 300,000 Soviet casualties seem incredibly high for the small scale of fighting described in the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P5 Posted October 17, 2002 Author Share Posted October 17, 2002 Originally posted by akdavis: My only complaint would be that the fighting within Berlin is somewhat neglected, making the 300,000 Soviet casualties seem incredibly high for the small scale of fighting described in the book.Maybe to that number is included all the casulties in the offensive of taking Berlin? Not just the casulties that occured inside of the city, but the fighting in the suburbs and on that ridge (can't remember the name) where the Germans had established their defensive position before the actual city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlord69 Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 Yeah Cornelius Ryan's "The Last Battle" has maybe 2 paragraphs in the whole actually talking about the fighting in downtown Berlin. But I don't know what to give the Germans excatlly. Should the Germans get slaugtered 95% to 5% ever time or should I give them a few weapons to actually make it a fun battle for mutlyplayers. Its tough finding out what the Germans were able to even put into battle around the Reichstag during the last few days. So many units just disappeared. How do you know how well a formation did before they all got buried in a collapesing building. Then the tanks that just took out a building gets wiped out on the next block to a tank. Right now I got it so its winnable from either side if playing the AI. The map covers the eastern part of the Tiergarten, the Reichstag, the Ministry of the Interior(Gestopo HQ), the Moltke Bridge over the Spree River, the Brandenburg Gate and the Kroll Opera house. I'll send you a copy later tonight, I've a couple of changes to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P5 Posted October 18, 2002 Author Share Posted October 18, 2002 What I have read, the Germans threw everything that they had against the Russians. That means that it was a very mixed fighting force. SS guards which never probably had seen any real fighting, young boys (we have all seen that picture?), Volkssturm units with no real training, Heer units that were not in the best fighting condition and didn't have no officers anymore, units that had only few men left. This is just the general picture that I have gotten from fighting in Berlin. Maybe in scenarios about Berlin in 1945, the fighting force should be very mixed. In experience, some maybe should be conscript units, few veteran or elite units, rest of them green or regular. Maybe put few platoons without HQ unit? (Don't know if that is possible in editor?) Just thoughts. It's easy to give instructions, when I haven't done a single scenario to any game, ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlord69 Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 Thats pretty much what I tried to do in my Reichstag scenario. Added some tweaks to it, and I just sent it off. Hope you enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Beginna Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 Originally posted by P5: What I have read, the Germans threw everything that they had against the Russians. That means that it was a very mixed fighting force.Hi there. The last Battles were actually fougth by foreigners. They could not go home, while most Germans tried to put on their civilian clothes and get home somehow - many were hanged for corwardness in the last days. In Berlin itself, a lot of Beligium people (SS Wallonie) had the questionable honor of defending the center... They did not dared to go home with a SS tatoo. Actually, a lot of guys like that get killed by their own people without a trial... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akdavis Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 Originally posted by Da Beginna: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by P5: What I have read, the Germans threw everything that they had against the Russians. That means that it was a very mixed fighting force.Hi there. The last Battles were actually fougth by foreigners. They could not go home, while most Germans tried to put on their civilian clothes and get home somehow - many were hanged for corwardness in the last days. In Berlin itself, a lot of Beligium people (SS Wallonie) had the questionable honor of defending the center... They did not dared to go home with a SS tatoo. Actually, a lot of guys like that get killed by their own people without a trial...</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 Originally posted by akdavis: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Da Beginna: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by P5: What I have read, the Germans threw everything that they had against the Russians. That means that it was a very mixed fighting force.Hi there. The last Battles were actually fougth by foreigners. They could not go home, while most Germans tried to put on their civilian clothes and get home somehow - many were hanged for corwardness in the last days. In Berlin itself, a lot of Beligium people (SS Wallonie) had the questionable honor of defending the center... They did not dared to go home with a SS tatoo. Actually, a lot of guys like that get killed by their own people without a trial...</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benpark Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 A quick reminder-I have a Berlin map at the Scenario Depot (as yet unreviewed..) for scenario designers/ QB's. I am really excited to get some Berlin scenarios on my HD, but too involved with making some other maps and 2SS scenario's to do it myself (and I am a cartographic junkie anyways). note: The "Preview" is not to my map at the Scenario Depot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkybax Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 I've read Cornelius Ryan's book and Beevor's book, I agree with Akvadas the Ryan's book is a great panoramic wiew on this topic. And a little dated. Beevor's book is focused on the Berlin campaign, not only the street fighting. And is very good to me. For those who haven't read it I advice to read the Beevor's book on Stalingrad. The best I've ever read on the topic. Bye. Funkybax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scots Gray mkII Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 Also included were the last remnants of the SS Charlemange division and a SPANISH!!! SS company. As with Wallonie and Nordland they went down to the last man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 Originally posted by Scots Gray mkII: Also included were the last remnants of the SS Charlemange division...I believe those would be the French that akdavis mentioned went down defending the Chancellory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History Buff Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 They did not dared to go home with a SS tatoo. Actually, a lot of guys like that get killed by their own people without a trial...Very very true. Alot of attrocities were commited by liberated nations. I recall one my Grandfather, (Apart of the Dutch Underground and then a cook for the british army), witnessed upon returning home to Heerland I believe it's called in southern Holland. Across razor wire, were all the local nazi conspiritors. My Grandfather saw one of his best mates on that wire in his nazi uniform. The same mate who had offered him a nazi uniform in 1940 with the call to join the "new order." One my Grandfater refused thankfully. Well lets face it I probabably wouldn't be around today if he did put on that uniform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cortes Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 This is most certainly off topic, however after I leafed through this post I rushed to the nearest book store and got a copy of Stalingrad. It's incredibly good. I'd like to thank everybody for drumming up such hype, because the book roxorz my boxorz. mmmyep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlord69 Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 Hats off to Ben Park's Berlin map. I encourage everyone to check it out. It blows away my feeble 2 day attempt. Its really nice, just needs some JgPzIV-75mm70s and some JS-III on the streets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 Beevor's Fall of Berlin was educational but not a particularly fun read, I was disgusted and had to stop reading at times and was almost forced to skip some sections covering the Red Army atrocities in German soil. But it will help you understand the last stages of the war, what was going on in Berlin, a lot of the political aspects of the time and for example the Vistula Front and the last major Russian attacks are covered well. Theres also plenty of little details that make the book alive. Some parts depicting Hermann Goering's personal antics and the actions of his "übermensch" paratrooper/luftwaffe divisions are almost comical in a dark way. He even demanded his divisions be thrown to attack in the -45 so "all the Red Army will be sent to hell." He really thought a few divisions of Luftwaffe ground personnel turned infantry would smash the whole Red Army... Heh. One divisional commander suffered a nervous breakdown because of his überdivisions conduct and fighting proves (i.e. throwing weapons to the ground, running away and shouting "der Iwan kommt!"). Snippets like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts