killmore Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 I am reading Glanz book where Glans points out that there were "Political Officers" in German army too. From his point of view they were equivalent of "Commisars". And as role of commisar diminished in Soviet army, it grew in German Army. Is this correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Uber General Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 They'd make a cool purchasable unit - +2 combat +1 moral with a 10% chance to fail each turn. Failure reduces the unit strength by one or two men Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by killmore: I am reading Glanz book where Glans points out that there were "Political Officers" in German army too. From his point of view they were equivalent of "Commisars". Well, we also have "Political Officers" in the General Forum, and they are indeed the equivalent of "Commisars". One is characterized as 'Starfleet Captain'. All Totalitarian States, or those who would emulate them, will institute this sort of grim and judgemental 'check' on individual thought and expression. From the Inquisitor General of Spain, to France of the Revolution, from the Gestapo of Nazi Germany, to the Commisars of Soviet Russia, from Islamic Mullahs demanding the death of book authors, to Right Wing Christians of our own America, you will always find those ready to perpetrate horror in the name of their "Higher Ideal'. When an ideological stance is philosophically and spiritually bankrupt, the only way to promote and enforce it is through repression, bigotry, and the slander of all opposing viewpoints. [ July 19, 2002, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: Seanachai ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by killmore: I am reading Glanz book where Glans points out that there were "Political Officers" in German army too. From his point of view they were equivalent of "Commisars". And as role of commisar diminished in Soviet army, it grew in German Army. Is this correct?Killmore, you are probably talking about NSFOs (Nationalsozialistische Führungsoffiziere - National Socialist 'Leadership/Education' Officers - very difficult to translate). Unlike Commissars, these were not really involved in the leadership of their units, but were supposed to do the indoctrination bit. One of the most prominent examples (to a German) would probably be Franz Josef Strauss. Their role was quite different as I understand it, because the Wehrmacht had a very different tradition from the Red Army, and was far more apolitical, therefore making political agitation work a weird thing to have. Strauss for example claimed that he only got the job because his unit commander was ordered to appoint an NSFO, and he chose someone who he knew would not cause too much hassle, but would make him appear compliant with the order. What the Germans had were their death squads though, shooting/hanging soldiers almost at will in the last weeks of the war, especially in the east. von Luck has an excellent example of this in his memoirs 'Panzer Commander'. A large number of German soldiers found themselves dangling from a lamp-post because they were deemed by some roaming 'judge' or a troop of SS to be AWOL. The final death sentences for desertion were handed down (and carried out) in Denmark after the surrender. The judges who passed the sentence were never brought to book for this. Another 'motivational tool' in the German army was 'Sippenhaft'. Soldiers were threatened that if they did not stand and die in their foxhole, their family would be suffering for that at home. I have no idea how prevalent that was, but you find a number of references to it with regard to the fighting in the low countries in British histories. Certainly a fun place to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: [snips] Another 'motivational tool' in the German army was 'Sippenhaft'. Soldiers were threatened that if they did not stand and die in their foxhole, their family would be suffering for that at home. I have no idea how prevalent that was, but you find a number of references to it with regard to the fighting in the low countries in British histories.Dunno of it counts strictly as "Sippenhaft", but one of the stories I can't give a printed reference for shows this unappealing aspect of Nazi people skills. Oberleutnant Steiner, later to be the commander (following the death of the original BC in the preliminary bombing -- and that's a story that must wait for beer) of the famous Merville battery on D-Day. In civvy street before the war, he had nothing but contempt for the brown-shorted bully-boys of the NSDAP. However, he was compelled to volunteer for the Wehrmacht because some of the local brownshirts threatened to beat up his pregnant suster unless he did so. I find it remarkable that, despite the circumstances of his joining, Steiner performed superlatively well on D-Day and afterwards. I understand from Col. Chilcott of St-Loup Hors (just outside Bayeux) that he could still hold his Calvados pretty well when they met (and stayed up drinking until 03:00) in 1999. All the best, John. All the best, John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlow Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by Seanachai: When an ideological stance is philosophically and spiritually bankrupt, the only way to promote and enforce it is through repression, bigotry, and the slander of all opposing viewpoints. Yes indeed. Which makes the following bigotry and slander on your part in the following very curious: Originally posted by Seanachai: From the Inquisitor General of Spain, to France of the Revolution, from the Gestapo of Nazi Germany, to the Commisars of Soviet Russia, from Islamic Mullahs demanding the death of book authors, to Right Wing Christians of our own America, you will always find those ready to perpetrate horror in the name of their "Higher Ideal'. Now I will be the first to admit that certain elements in a rather heterogeneous group that has been (for the convenience of those who prefer simplistic attacks) called “Right Wing Christians” are distasteful, overbearing, and closed minded. I will even grant that an infinitesimal minority of people who self identify as Christians have done violence in the name of their religion (note that we are referring to modern U.S.). However, associating this “movement” with the horrors of the Inquisition, the Concentration Camp, the Gulag, or the Taliban is ridiculous and insulting. If anyone is more closed minded than Pat and Jerry, it is the people who call them NAZIs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Andreas, I take it you are referring to the Feldjäger, who were granted sweeping powers of arrest and the ability to conduct "flying courts martial", with permission to execute on the spot anyone thought to be shirking or running away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naja Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Christian is that so bad...............I still keep it to myself.....just in case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Andreas, I take it you are referring to the Feldjäger, who were granted sweeping powers of arrest and the ability to conduct "flying courts martial", with permission to execute on the spot anyone thought to be shirking or running away?They were the official military police (fondly known amongst the Landers as 'Kettenhunde', chain dogs, after the breastplate on a chain they wore). But no, they were not what I referred to. These sort of niceties were done away with towards the end, and it became a free for all. I just read about a case of a German military judge who ordered two soldiers to be executed on May 13th, 1945 (sic!) for Wehrkraftzersetzung/desertion - the sentence was carried out without the Canadian military authorities interfering. The judge became a civil judge after the war and retired in peace. When one of the widows tried to get him on a charge of murder, the German justice system would not accept that and open a trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: They were the official military police (fondly known amongst the Landers as 'Kettenhunde', chain dogs, after the breastplate on a chain they wore). But no, they were not what I referred to. These sort of niceties were done away with towards the end, and it became a free for all. Actually, no. The Feldjäger (the current BW term for military police) were distinct from the Feldgendarmerie (the ones you refer to) in that their powers of arrest were far more advanced and they were permitted to carry out summary action well beyond the normal concept of dienstliche befehl (Official Order) whereby any soldier in the German Army whose duty demanded it (ie a sentry) was permitted to shoot someone who failed to comply. [ July 19, 2002, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Learn something new every day. I thought Feldjaeger was the modern variety of the Feldgendarm. Thanks Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Believe it or not, most German Heer, Waffen SS, Fallschirmjaeger and other misc ground units, featured an excellent rapport between the enlisted men and most junior and senior officers. Most German battalion commmanders led their units from the front, and knew a lot of their troops by sight and name. In reading accounts of the war written by German survivors a common thread runs through all of them. These men were willing to go through extreme measures to get back to their original units, if they were returning to the front from leave or convalescence. This indicates that in spite of politcal indoctrination from Commissars or whatever, most men fight for their friends, officers and units, and not for some political ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by Nidan1: Believe it or not, most German Heer, Waffen SS, Fallschirmjaeger and other misc ground units, featured an excellent rapport between the enlisted men and most junior and senior officers. Most German battalion commmanders led their units from the front, and knew a lot of their troops by sight and name. In reading accounts of the war written by German survivors a common thread runs through all of them. These men were willing to go through extreme measures to get back to their original units, if they were returning to the front from leave or convalescence. This indicates that in spite of politcal indoctrination from Commissars or whatever, most men fight for their friends, officers and units, and not for some political ideal.I hope this is not in dispute, as you are exactly right. At least one German soldier I have talked to personally still referred to his company commander as his "chief" and remembered him fondly. ("Chef" or "chief" of course was one German word for company commander). German officers ate what their men ate as well, not having the institution of the "officers' mess" as did Commonwealth units - many of whom still had segregated messes even in field conditions. [ July 19, 2002, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by Marlow: However, associating this “movement” with the horrors of the Inquisition, the Concentration Camp, the Gulag, or the Taliban is ridiculous and insulting.Noted. It was a 'hasty and poorly defined' generalization lumped in with much more specific examples. When written I was thinking primarily of those splinter groups whose ultra-conservative 'christianity' merely serves as an underpinning for their primarily 'supremacist' activities. [ July 19, 2002, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Seanachai ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: ... the institution of the "officers' mess" as did Commonwealth units ...Not to mention the Italian army, where this was even more pronounced. Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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