What's up with this sneaking business

[lcm1947]

I don't know if anybody else has even noticed this but over the last several weeks playing the game I am more and more - what?, disappointed for lack of a better word in seeing what the game considers soldiers sneaking looks like. I mean that's not sneaking. It's more like just standing upright and slowly walking. Now sneaking is kind of bending over and moving slowly - you know sneaking. Can't this be modelled correctly in the game. It certainly is a small thing but it really bugs me. I watch this marksman for example trying to sneak around and keep saying to him bent over damn it, what the heck is wrong with you. Are you trying to get shot. Now I'm not saying it doesn't work because it sure does but it just looks so unsneaking to me.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

I don't know if anybody else has even noticed this but over the last several weeks playing the game I am more and more - what?, disappointed for lack of a better word in seeing what the game considers soldiers sneaking looks like. I mean that's not sneaking. It's more like just standing upright and slowly walking. Now sneaking is kind of bending over and moving slowly - you know sneaking. Can't this be modelled correctly in the game. It certainly is a small thing but it really bugs me. I watch this marksman for example trying to sneak around and keep saying to him bent over damn it, what the heck is wrong with you. Are you trying to get shot. Now I'm not saying it doesn't work because it sure does but it just looks so unsneaking to me.

Maybe you should ask them to crawl if that what you want to see on the screen.

SNEAK has been loosely translated into

"Movement to Contact and RETURN fire".

It is NOT exactly sneaking as you think of the word sneak, in CMBO the sneak command means advance cautiously and then sit tight and return fire when fired upon (mostly, IIRC IMHO)

-tom w

[Doug Beman]

Appearances are deceiving, guys. BTS has not the resources to accurately portray every possible motion type. The running animation applies for running; the crawling animation applies for crawling; the walking animation applies for walking and sneaking.

DjB

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

SNEAK has been loosely translated into

"Movement to Contact and RETURN fire".

It is NOT exactly sneaking as you think of the word sneak, in CMBO the sneak command means advance cautiously and then sit tight and return fire when fired upon (mostly, IIRC IMHO)

-tom w

Well, the one thing being left out here that is more like our normal understanding of sneaking is that sneaking units moving through cover are much harder to spot than if moving or running, esp if their HQ has a "?" bonus.

[Ace Pilot]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

I don't know if anybody else has even noticed this but over the last several weeks playing the game I am more and more - what?, disappointed for lack of a better word in seeing what the game considers soldiers sneaking looks like. I mean that's not sneaking. It's more like just standing upright and slowly walking. Now sneaking is kind of bending over and moving slowly - you know sneaking. Can't this be modelled correctly in the game. It certainly is a small thing but it really bugs me. I watch this marksman for example trying to sneak around and keep saying to him bent over damn it, what the heck is wrong with you. Are you trying to get shot. Now I'm not saying it doesn't work because it sure does but it just looks so unsneaking to me.

Lee,

You are certainly correct in that your soldiers are not hunched over while sneaking. This was originally addressed in the demo beta version 1.05.01. However, it was a very short-lived version, because the Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) review of it found that these hunched over soldiers were 14% more likely to develop debilitating back strains than non-hunched over soldiers. As a result, the version had to be rewritten to address OSHA concerns. From the OSHA press release:

“A comprehensive review of various employees (sharpshooters, squads, HQs, and mortar teams) in the Combat Mission workplace found a number of violations of OSHA regulations. As OSHA is tasked with reducing injuries and illness in the workplace, the review determined that:

· Supervisors aren’t doing enough to prevent injuries and illness. They should endeavor to remain within 20 to 30 meters of their employees to keep an eye on them at all times.

· Sneaking employees should not hunch over because of risk of muskoskeletal disorders.

· All employees working together should move in unison. OSHA has determined that random movements lead to random injuries.

· Heavy equipment must be moved by at least two employees. If a second employee is unavailable, wait until one becomes available. No job is so important that it can’t wait for assistance from a helping hand. Remember to lift with the legs. Unnecessary back strain is the number one cause* of lost work days.

These actions, along with continued oversight by OSHA, will lead to the Combat Mission workplace being a happier, more productive environment.

*Based on a recent OSHA Combat Mission study that filtered out the insignificant effects of small arms fire, shrapnel, mortar fire, high explosives, friendly fire, and truck accidents.”

Hope this answers your question.

Ace

[lcm1947]

You guys are so smart. Well it was just a sore spot with me but now that I understand what sneaking actually means I'll stop hollering at the guys. Thank you all for the answers. I feel better understanding why they arent' all bent over it really was bugging me. And Ace Pilot I am certainly glad you pointed all this out to me. I had no idea what all was involved in getting a game out and certainly appreciate the info.

[Cull]

Also not critical at all, but for humor's sake...I hate it when I'm moving guys up into position, trying to be relatively "sneaky" (especially at night), everything is quiet, then...."GET MOVING!" "FORWARD!", "C'MON MEN!!"

I know it doesn't affect the game, and it's actually pretty funny when I find myself cringing as if my own head was in danger of being shot off. I also know that if you actually give a "sneak" command, there are "quiet" voice sounds, which is cool. But sometimes you just wish they could "move" or "run" prior to contact and still keep some damn noise discipline!

[Bruno Weiss]

Ah, but it does effect the game. In point of fact, I entered a thread about this a few days ago. Many of my opponents have noted the noise my infantry is making and on at least two separate occasions have been able to identify the general area and movement of my troops from that noise.

The thread I started asked the question; "What movement command makes less noise"? There were no really good answers. As for their making noise in the first place, yes I agree. It is kind of like the scene in SPR, where they are walking in enemy territory across an open field (dangerous enough to start with), and yappity yap yapping about some BS or other, and even the Captain chirps in rather than shutting them up.

Sheese. A couple days in real combat and a feller learns quickly, or never at all, that quiet is ones best friend. So I seriously doubt troops when ordered to "sneak", or even "move", near enemy lines much less while engaged, would be hollering MOVE OUT MEN, FORWARD, MACH SCHNELLL, GO GO GO, at the top of their lungs where you could hear it a mile and a 1/2 away.

[ April 25, 2002, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[JonS]

There is a much more serious problem with the sneak command than the graphic not being hunched over. Do a search on "sneak" and my member number within the last couple of months. Unfortunately I can't remember which forum though.

Apparently BTS are aware of the problem...

Regards

JonS

[Agua]

I did some tests about a year ago using "sneak" and "crawl" trying to get an idea concerning the concealment effect of the two orders and in various terrains /w leaders + ?bonuses. It was too much to come up with numbers for it. In the "tips and tricks" forum there's a post in there somewhere with a summary of the brief tests. From memory though, "crawl" has no concealment value. "Sneak" has no concealment value when the unit is in open terrain within LOS, regardless of HQ's ? bonus.

With regard to the effect of the various movement commands through the differing terrains, enemy visual perception of the units' presence followed as expected: "sneak" allowed the units to come closer to the enemy before being spotted than "move", and "move" closer than "run". The various terrains' effect upon concealment varied by type of terrain and provided concealment relative to each other as you'd expect - in a continuum of least to greatest - open/rough/scattered trees/woods, blah, blah ... (don't remember the order).

If anyone is interested in looking it up, its somewhere over in the tips & tricks and maybe under a thread that had the word "crawl" in the name.

[lcm1947]

Well I guess the sneak command should actually be a recon order then or something like that. Would make more sense but hey I'm sure BTS did the best they could. I mean hind sight is so nice. As far as if the voices in the game can be heard by the enemy I myself have not ever heard the enemy but I may not have been paying attention but I will start. And thanks for the info about crawl versus sneak. I always wondered about that. After over a year playing this game I am learning that the sneak command is so important that I am having to increase the number of turns I play to get to complete the game to my satisfaction. Normally about 40 turns. I play only the AI however so he doesn't ever say anything about it. Anyway thanks for all the info. everybody.