A question of gameness???

[PK]

In the opinion of the forum what constitutes a gamey tactic?

Surely the people who use such underhand methods are in fact the better commander because they are using all the resources available in order to beat their opponent.

Any thoughts on this?

[MikeyD]

In my opinion Gameyness usually entails using quirks in the game engine to produce advantageous non-historical gameplay.

One example is rushing the flag on the final move in the hope that you'll gain control of it before your opponent has the opportunity to slaughter you (which he would if the game were open-ended). Another might be hugging the edge of the map to ensure that your opponent cannot flank you. Both moves are the byproduct of the game engine, are non-historical, and are Gamey.

[Priest]

Gunny Bunny?

Regardless you will find that most Gamey commanders as it were are actually the players who are not that good and need a crutch. Good solid tactics will beat stupidity every time.

[Stixx]

Originally posted by Priest:

Good solid tactics will beat stupidity every time.

That's why i always beat you!

[PK]

But if using tanks crews as recon pawns in order to scope out enemy positions works then why not use it. In a historical sense it is wrong but commanders througout history have used whatever is available to them to their best advantage and that is what people are doing when employing whne using gamey tactics in CM.

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

So when I play against you with a battalion of King tigers supported by and entire Wing of BF-110's you won't complain?

[Priest]

PK, (Gunny Bunny)

The reason is this is simple, on the field how are you as a commander supposed to get this tank crew to do this? Their tank gets hit and they bail, unless you are in the tank with them then you are out of contact with them. Even if you have standing orders for them to move forward, realistically they would not, they would either huddle next to the tank or most likely head for the nearest cover. So lets say they make their way all the way back to the rear area (so to speak). Now you order them forward, they go just far enough to get out of your sight and in the real world they would then proceed to hide and do nothing else. Hence it is not realistic to do so. I am hoping you are just curious but if you truly feel this way you are ignorant of reality and you may want to seek games such as WarCraft III and other less realistic, less intensive, and less interactive games meant for more of the "twitch" crowd.

Stix

Hehe, get a DVD player! And the game!

Shadow

I have beat even worse odds (like 12 on 1) and won amazing victories against lesser players. Your battalion of KTs are without support infantry and if I was to get even points could beat that. In anything but flat Steppe you would actually be at a disadvantage. With cover you can negate the planes and also approach the KTs. So you would have to have the most perfect conditions ever even to gain an advantage which would most likely them make an unrealistic situation.

Both PK and Shadow should join a CMMC style game. PK you would be taught lessons every battle you fought as you would not get back those crews and such you sent forward even if you have a perfectly working tank. All is not roses, stop being ignorant, read a book or something. Shadow, you gain a new perspective on how powerful tanks like KTs are to properly outfitted troops (see realistic).

[Louie the Toad]

Shadow -- If we had agreed that our game would be ahistorical then I could think up a ridiculous scenario too.

PK -- Now I am one who has always said that using bailed out crews is not gamey. I give two reasons. One -- Common Sense.. As a commander who had only armor assets I would not send a tank to crest the top of the hill to scout. I would send a tank crew member or two on foot. Can't do that in the game so bailed crews serve the purpose.

Two -- Documented instances in Panzer Aces, for instance Michael Whittmann left his tank and his squadron and scouted out an enemy AT position during the night. When the AM came they drove over to the enemy position and proceeded to demolish the guns because they knew where each one was.

Other stuff is gamey as stated, such as edge hugging. Using crews I agree with you.

Someone on the Forum once described a tactic where he first fired lots of smoke into an enemy tank force that both out numbered him and outranged him with its guns. Then he rushed his inferior tanks right at the enemy into gun barrel to gun barrel range. His turrets could turn faster which highlighted the only real advantage his tanks had. At the same time he negated the enemy's range and armor and numerical advantage.

Some thought this gamey. I gave him the Stonewall Jackson Award. For the north the Chamberlin Award.

What I have described are not quirks in the game but novel use of the forces at hand.

Out of the Box.... Toad

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

Do they have jokes where you come from?

[PK]

Originally posted by Shadow 1st Hussars:

So when I play against you with a battalion of King tigers supported by and entire Wing of BF-110's you won't complain?

Yes I would. For the record I hate gamey tactics. I must also confess that I have been guilty of using them in the past especially the flag rush at the end of a battle, but not to much effect I might add

[Hoopenfaust2]

Originally posted by Shadow 1st Hussars:

Do they have jokes where you come from?

[PK]

Originally posted by Shadow 1st Hussars:

Do they have jokes where you come from?

Two fish in a tank. One turns to the other and says "So, can you drive this thing"

[Priest]

Shadow

Do they have smilies where you come from?

[Chad Harrison]

Do you know who the gamiest player is? Those darn russians! I am never playing the russians on a PBEM game again! You know what they did? First they gave themselves a huge handicap point benefit. They had atleast 4 times as many tanks as I did! Then, they bought a whole lot of artillery for like 10 points each! So before they ever even attacked me, they bombarded me for about 20 turns! On top of that, they brought these KV tanks that I cant knock out, how gamey is that? I will never play the russians again on a PBEM game! He can brag all he wants about beating Hitler or somefink, but I could of taken him if he wasnt so gamey.

Chad

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

Originally posted by Priest:

Shadow

Do they have smilies where you come from?

No. Article 84-B has banned all "smilies" from use on the BFC forums. Violation will result in your CMBO and CMBB CD's being melted and used as heads for barbie dolls.

I can't risk it.

[PK]

Priest. I am just curious as to where the boundry lies between gamey tactics and the clever use of the resources available lies. I have had well placed AT teams wiped out by tank crews which have been used as infantry/recon units. I thought this was gamey but maybe only because I lost my AT team.

I have tried Age of Empires and its ilke and found them incredibly dull and very limiting in terms of gameplay and yearned for somthing more until I found CM. BTW what is CMMC? I always try to learn new things whenever I play so evan if I lose (quite often) then I have somthing new to use in my next battle. SO if what you say is true then I'm interested.

Have you read "In Deadly Combat" by Gottlb Herbert Bidermann? Very good book. At one point he describes defending a train station, or somthing, using his pak37mm. He has to fight off two or three T34's. At one stage his pak crew and a T34 have both fired and missed at each other and the race is on to fire off the next round. I have had many such instances in CM which is why this game is so good.

[Captain Wacky]

Originally posted by Shadow 1st Hussars:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Priest:

Shadow

Do they have smilies where you come from?

No. Article 84-B has banned all "smilies" from use on the BFC forums. Violation will result in your CMBO and CMBB CD's being melted and used as heads for barbie dolls.

I can't risk it.</font>

[Nippy]

Originally posted by Shadow 1st Hussars:

So when I play against you with a battalion of King tigers supported by and entire Wing of BF-110's you won't complain?

Could you imagine that points that would cost in the purchase phase! Your Soviet Opponent could afford to buy Every Soviet Tank and AA gun ever made. :eek:

Your KT's and 110's would run out of ammo before you could kill them all.

[Priest]

PK

CMMC is Combat Mission Meta Campaign and is one of many Campaign level games out there that uses one of the CM games as it's tactical tool. The current CMMC game is wrapping up (well over a year to play) and encompassed close to a hundred players I believe.

What is the line you ask? Simple, are you doing something the game allows you to do that is not realistic and thus you take advantage of it. Using the fact you know when a battle ends, flag rushes are gamey. In real life there is no hard coded cease fire time. Rushing 5 jeeps straight down the gut at full speed with no regards to safety of the crew is gamey. When it comes to crews it is not a matter of they never did scout but a matter of "OUR TANK JUST WENT BOOM AND WE BARELY ESCAPED WITH OUR LIVES AND NOW YOU WANT US TO DO WHAT?"

As soon as I gain control of crews I march them directly to the rear, only altering a direct course for safety reasons. Now if they happen to stumble over an AT team on the way and eliminate it, well great but it was not the intended course of action. This allows me to play realistically and still manage the rare occurence of crews taking out other units. It is rare in my games, it was rare in the war. Just how I like it.