Arty limit in Fionn short 75 suggestions

[Redwolf]

Good morning guys, how are you today?

I have several remarks on the artilly limits in the Fionn rules.

There are several slightly different versions floating around which I think we should try to unify in one regard, and I also propose a change.

105mm VT arty

I think the 105mm VT artillery is an extremly powerful module and should belong to the long 76 rules, not the short 75.

Fionn 75mm and the 105mm versus 107mm story

The next issue is the exact artillery limit for Fionn short 75. Some versions say 105mm, others say 107mm, and mean to include the British 4.2" mortar, but accidentially include the US 4.2" mortar as well.

The British 4.2" mortar is a big-calibre mortar module, that means it is fast and fairly blasty, and cheap on top of that, you get several spotters even in small games. It is a big advantage for the British player, especially compared to the lame 105mm Axis FO. The other attractive mortar is the Axis 120mm, which is excluded, and the US 4.2 inch which is pretty expensive and not often chosen, as far as I have seen.

The least thing to change here is the wordings. The US 4.2" mortar should definitivly not be in the short 75 rules, but just saying "limit is 107mm (British 4.2" is included)" leaves that open, we need to be specific.

As for teh question of allowing the British 4.2" mortar, I know it is an overly nice module. However - the British run out of options since the appropriate equivalent to the 105mm artillery would be the 25pdr FO, which is just plain broken in CMBO due to rate of fire. I think the British players would be screwed without the 4.2" mortar, especially when comparing to historical reality.

So, I see two alternatives:

1) Change wordings to "limit is 105mm, plus the British 4.2" mortar

FO, but excluding VT artillery"

or

2) Lift the limit to 120mm, which will pull the following modules in:

- All 4.2" mortars

- British 4.5" guns (blast = 125, slow)

- American 4.5" guns (a litte faster and more expensive than Brit)

- Axis 120mm mortar (blast = 80, fast)

I kinda like the second idea and would like to hear people's opinions.

I know that the 120mm limit would be a substancial upgrade, changing the play style of infantry in Fionn 75 games. However, there are several reasons why I think it would be a good idea:

2a) Fionn 75 game are not infantry-friendly anyway, rather the opposite. You see more AFVs (not less, you don't change the infantry/armor relation, but average price is lower) and for infantry it doesn't make a difference that the armor is thinner and the gun shorter.

2b) Current Fionn 75 games have large numbers of howitzer-equipped vehicles, or even on-map howitzers. Infantry is getting blown out of the woods in Fionn 75 all the time, much more than in Fionn 76, where most people buy expensive tanks or TDs which, projected to the number you can buy, are rather harmless to infantry.

2c) I think inclusion of these modules might reflect reality better, historical reality and CMBO reality. Historically, the Allied had the heavy artillery in masses, and the Germans had smaller modules with less ammo, but they hurt. Also, Allies tend to have less infantry, both in reality and in CMBO, so letting the Allied having the larger mass-destructive artillery is probably not too much of a disadvantage for the Axis player, who might prefer the 120mm module anyway. CMBO reality is that Axis players have masses of infantry, usually with better smallarms and can overrun the Allied player more often than not, especially for a lack of area-blocking MGs.

The inclusion of the slightly more powerful artillery modules up to 120mm in Fionn 75 would

- work against the trend to buy masses of HE shooting vehicles instead

of real tanks, because now you can rely on artillery to get rid of

enemy infantry

- it would be more fair than the current limit, where the US 105mm is

very useful, the Axis 105mm much less and the British player can

sometimes take the 4.2" inch which gives then the edge, or in other

versions of Fionn 75, it leaves them with the unusable 25pdr module

- fairness is also improved in the overall weight of infantry versus

the other arms, since charges with masses of Axis infantry, which

can for now only be stopped with masses of "gamey" on-board SP

artillery, can be stopped in a realistic manner. It might even get

people to buy the more realistic rifle infantry more often

As a side note, the Scipio artillery rules do exactly that, they have the 120mm stuff in the medium section. I would like to hear from people who played under both rules. Did you like it?

[PiggDogg]

Redwolf

I like your suggestions.

However, wouldn't it almost be easier to just use Scipio's arty rules?

Cheers, Richard

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by PiggDogg:

Redwolf

I like your suggestions.

However, wouldn't it almost be easier to just use Scipio's arty rules?

Cheers, Richard

I figure you mean the 120mm limit?

The Scipio rules are usually not an option because they are too

complicated. People has a very strong preference for one-sentense

rules, or better one-number limit, not table lookup somewhere int he

web. Besides, the Scipio tables are only specified for games up to

1250 points.

[109 Gustav]

Another alternative would be to only allow small caliber arty- 81mm or less. That would give infantry more of an advantage in short-75s, since they wouldn't have to deal with a combination of tanks and large caliber boom.

Small caliber arty would also level the arty playing field, since Brit 3 inch mortars, US and German 81mm mortars, and US and German 75mm arty is all more or less equal when comparing blast/delay to points.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

Another alternative would be to only allow small caliber arty- 81mm or less. That would give infantry more of an advantage in short-75s, since they wouldn't have to deal with a combination of tanks and large caliber boom.

But will make people buying all the BOOM vehicles to get *some* thing to get rid of all the grunts. As I explained, I think this is unrealistic, replacing decent artillery with lots of SP guns and support tanks turns CMBO into Quake.

[Jarmo]

"Up to 105mm". That's a simple rule I could live with.

If 105mm VT is excluded, how about 25pdr VT?

It's also a helluva infantry sweeper...

[Croda]

War has rules now?

Wierd.

[imported_Hiram Sedai]

Originally posted by Croda:

War has rules now?

Wierd.

It has to have rules now. We can never, ever let another Crodaburg happen. Never again.

[Goanna]

One thing war has, mr. croda is action. So quit the job you hate, go home and send me a turn.

The small arty rule proposed by redwolf is how I naturally breakdown small and large arty in my games without having thought about it at all.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Jarmo:

"Up to 105mm". That's a simple rule I could live with.

If 105mm VT is excluded, how about 25pdr VT?

It's also a helluva infantry sweeper...

The wordings I propose for the "small" solution (not bumping to 120mm) are:

"limit is 105mm, plus the British 4.2" mortar FO, but excluding VT artillery"

[Croda]

Originally posted by Goanna:

...So quit the job you hate...

I'm employed by the State of Pennsyltucky. You think I'd quit that?

[RobH]

Fionn's "Official" Rules, as sanctioned by Fionn Kelly, are posted only at one location, that is on the Rugged Defense site here.

Other sites either refer to this Rules location or have had Fionn's express permission to copy and post them on their respective sites. Fionn is naturally very keen that there should only be ONE version of his Rules to avoid confusion but it is also true to say these Rules have been under consideration for an update and clarification for some time, including arty limitations.

By default, Fionn's Rules DO NOT include ANY arty limits. However arty limits are SUGGESTED by Fionn in order for some sort of consistency with armour limitations. Thus arty limits are really up to the two players to agree before selecting forces or whatever ladder/tournament limitations may apply if playing in a tourney. Thus if you feel you want to exclude VT arty or include British 4.2" arty, then that is really up to the individual players to agree before selecting forces.

This topic has pointed out the need to update Fionn's Rules and I will endeavour to try and arrange this through the man himself. However, other commitments may mean this could take a little time.

In the meantime, I suggest players agree between themselves what they wish to include by way of arty limitations within individual games.

Rob

[Larsen]

Originally posted by redwolf:

It is not true that Scipio rules are specified only up to 1250pts QBs. I played using those rules the 1500 QBs and 2000pts QBs. Generally the table is available for all QB.

The idea behind Scipio tules is not only to prohibit certain calibre but rather to limit the number of large calibre arty that is available.

From my point of view it makes the games more balanced. Unless you play unrestricted and let allied playes to get as much infantry as he/she wants.

[Croda]

That does it.

I'm creating: The Croda Rules™ for CM.

Look for them soon.

[Herr Kruger]

Scipio's Artillery rules are the best in the business. I usually play with one of Fionn's armor rules, but then say that Scipio's Artillery Rules are also in effect and take precedence.

You have to play a game with more than 1250 points (a ME, that is) just to get above 81 mm (for German and US) and while a little more complicated, I find no reason why you can't figure them out.. it's quite easy.

And infantry definitely does not get blown out of the woods in my short-75 games, that's for sure.

At least my Axis infantry doesn't, hehe...

Anyone wanna play me?!