Gpig Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 Germany's last offensive in the East? I remember playing this fun battle in Panzer General. (Or maybe it was Allied General?) It took place somewhere South and East in an Eastern block country. Romania maybe? Bulgaria? There was all the latest German equipment but just too many Russians. What battle was this and when and where did it take place? I assume Panzer General was a pretty GENERAL game as far as historical accuracy goes, but . . . (The map had a couple of big lakes on it, and some serious moutains. Plus it was a two front endeavor.) Can anyone help me out? Thanks, Gpig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 Should be 6. SS Panzer Armee, operation 'Spring Awakening' (Frühlingserwachen), aimed to relieve the encircled Budapest. It failed (what a surprise...) 6th to 15th March 45, around Lake Balaton in Hungary. That the one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: Should be 6. SS Panzer Armee, operation 'Spring Awakening' (Frühlingserwachen), aimed to relieve the encircled Budapest. It failed (what a surprise...) 6th to 15th March 45, around Lake Balaton in Hungary. That the one?There were lots of Tiger I's involved, IIRC. Not that it would have mattered if any of those nasty SU-100's were about. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted July 31, 2002 Author Share Posted July 31, 2002 Yup. THAT's the one. It was a tough fight to win in Panzer General, that's for sure. Especially since the Soviets attacked from the North into my flank. Thanks! Gpig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Funny, I think that's what happened in Real Life™, too Gamey bastards, the Soviets... Silvio, I would have thought that at that stage most of the tanks would be Tiger II, not Tiger I? Ripley gives the following strength on the move to Hungary: I SS Panzerkorps 1. SS PD, 12. SS PD, 501. sSS PzAbt and 560. Schwere Panzerjägerabteilung 36 Tiger II 67 Panzer IV 85 Panther 51 Jagdpanzer IV 16 Jagdpanther 8 AA tanks >150 HTs II SS Panzerkorps 2. SS PD and 9. SS PD 65 Panther 45 Panzer IV 53 Stug III Artillery included a heavy regiment with 21cm guns and a rocket brigade. Quite the striking force, I was not aware that they could concentrate that much 'stuff' so late in the war. All figures from Ripley, 'Steel Storm', which is a bit naff-looking, but surprisingly well-written book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Um...let's put it into perspective - 418 tanks (excluding AA). That's, what... 1 month's losses for the Americans just after D-Day. I'm sure the Russian Riflemen at the point of impact didn't appreciate it, but it's not really all that much in the wider scheme of things by 1945!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Awww, come on. For a local counter-offensive by the Germans with their railroad network and all in March 1945? Give them some credit. You are of course right, it was the equivalent of weeing in the wind. Of course, a Soviet general would have looked over it and asked what he was supposed to send in as exploitation force, but that is a different story... Considering what the Germans had lost, and lost again, and lost again in AFVs by this stage of the war, I find that figure quite remarkable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizee Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 the point was that british ultra deciphered the orders and gave the russians a hint about a upcomming counteroffensive un hungary.the russian commander prepared the defenses well, and the german strike ran into some kind of a ambush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Originally posted by Silvio Manuel: There were lots of Tiger I's involved, IIRC. Not that it would have mattered if any of those nasty SU-100's were about. :cool: SU-100's had nothing to do with its defeat (nor any other sort of vehicle). The attack took place during the muddy season. The muddy season in the plains of Hungary are similar to the muddy season in Russia. The German armor could hardly move and finally bogged down. During the retreat, 1st SS-Panzer-Regiment was down to about 10 tanks... most lost to bogging in the mud. The whole operation was a planned disaster. [ July 31, 2002, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Berlichtingen ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Originally posted by Berlichtingen: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Silvio Manuel: There were lots of Tiger I's involved, IIRC. Not that it would have mattered if any of those nasty SU-100's were about. :cool: SU-100's had nothing to do with its defeat (nor any other sort of vehicle). The attack took place during the muddy season. The muddy season in the plains of Hungary are similar to the muddy season in Russia. The German armor could hardly move and finally bogged down. During the retreat, 1st SS-Panzer-Regiment was down to about 10 tanks... most lost to bogging in the mud. The whole operation was a planned disaster.</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Originally posted by Commissar: Losing precious tanks to mud. How depressing.I'm sure it contributed to Guderian's nervous breakdown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted August 1, 2002 Author Share Posted August 1, 2002 Hmmmm. Mud wasn't even modelled in Panzer General. One of the nice things about that battle in P.G. was (I know I know, I AM going on and on about PG) that the battle map had plenty of differing terrain types. Open steppe. Hills. Forests. Cities. I had a lot of fun shunting around my Experienced Tiger II units to deal with soviets breaking through all over the place. Plus placing dug in 88's on my flanks in strategic ground, to slow up the onslaught. Fun fun fun! The operation "Spring Awakening" could provide some interesting material for CM:BB scenarios and OP's I think. Unless it's all in the mud, of course. Gpig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fieldmarshall Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Well the Germans did push ten miles before being halted, then they dug in and fought for three days..then they were thrown back. But just think had Hitler put all of that into Berlin rater than into that idiotic offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Originally posted by Fieldmarshall: Well the Germans did push ten miles before being halted, then they dug in and fought for three days..then they were thrown back. But just think had Hitler put all of that into Berlin rater than into that idiotic offensive.Nice fight. Too bad it was in the wrong place. Oh well, it's not like their presence would have prevented the inevitable but it would have given the Reds some interesting times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatpr Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Hitler thought he would recover some oil wells. Anyone know if it's true that Dietrich and some other officers mailed their armbands to Himmler in a chamber pot after Hitler ordered them disgraced for their failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schoerner Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Originally posted by Fieldmarshall: Well the Germans did push ten miles before being halted, then they dug in and fought for three days..then they were thrown back. But just think had Hitler put all of that into Berlin rater than into that idiotic offensive.Don't forget about the millions of fugitives. Every day the russian advance was delayed, some thousand of fugitives were able to reach the western zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Originally posted by gatpr: Hitler thought he would recover some oil wells. Anyone know if it's true that Dietrich and some other officers mailed their armbands to Himmler in a chamber pot after Hitler ordered them disgraced for their failure.I don't know about Dietrich personally but I believe the order was to all members of the participating SS units like the 1st SS Panzer . Apparently, they no longer deserved their cuff titles or the title Liebstandarte "Adolf Hitler" because of their failure. Dietrich refused to follow the order. He told his men to keep them on as it was a "reward" for their service (I believe he was being contemptously sarcastic). Hitler's ingrateful attitude was too much for even an old Nazi like Dietrich. [ August 01, 2002, 02:39 AM: Message edited by: Commissar ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 That's one helluva way to give thanks to one of their best SS Pz.Divisions, especially since it was among the original Waff SS divs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Originally posted by Fieldmarshall: But just think had Hitler put all of that into Berlin rater than into that idiotic offensive.[think]It would not have made a dent.[/think] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Fieldmarshall: But just think had Hitler put all of that into Berlin rater than into that idiotic offensive.[think]It would not have made a dent.[/think] </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catacol Highlander Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 If you want an excellent analysis of "Spring Awakening" then try to find a copy of "Men of Steel: 1st SS Panzer Corps" written by Michael Reynolds and published here in the UK in 1999. He is a retired Divisional commander from the British Army and now an acknowledged expert [at least over here] on the Waffen SS. I am a historian myself for my sins and his evidence gathering and balanced approached strikes me as impressive. He interviewed the SS officers where possible, has used comment and official divisional histories from both sides and put together an excellent account. For the record the book also covers 1st SS in the Ardennes... The 400 or so tanks listed in the thread above do not tally with Reynolds' research - he would indicate substantially less and many non-operational. Of great interest to me, however, is is assertion that the supposed massive Russian numerical superiority in numbers of tanks is a myth and that the majority of Soviet formations were also severely understrength. Spring Awakening, he claims, was much more of an infantry battle with armoured support and when the Russian launched their own counter attack in the area they did so with less than a 3:1 advantage. That may surprise a few readers here - it did me. It is also interesting to read what happened to many of the leading 1st SS Corps officers after the war. Nice touch that... Recommended highly - good basis for operation and scenario building too I reckon. Cheers Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Alastair, thanks. I wonder why all the stuff on the Waffen SS has to have 'Steel' in it... Why not Hamster? 'Hamster Storm', 'Men of Hamsters', 'Hamster Inferno'. Now that would be a nice touch. Anyways - I posted the numbers from Ripley because those are the ones I have. I think he is probably referring to strength returns from before the operation started, and probably from before they were assembled (hence my 'on the move'). I would expect that this strength goes down dramatically on day one, if not earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blenheim Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: Alastair, thanks. I wonder why all the stuff on the Waffen SS has to have 'Steel' in it... Why not Hamster? 'Hamster Storm', 'Men of Hamsters', 'Hamster Inferno'. Now that would be a nice touch. .That's a classic ! . LOL ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: ...'Hamster Inferno'...Sounds good to me. "It's getting kind of cool in here. Throw another hamster on the fire, will you, hon?" Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 "It is also interesting to read what happened to many of the leading 1st SS Corps officers after the war. Nice touch that..." Yes does sound interesting - do tell. Fen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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