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Of Shockwave and Tracers...and Realism

Sarge Saunders
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Sarge Saunders Senior Member

Sarge Saunders

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Honestly, I think the problems with shockwaves, tracers, and tank rounds is about how much harder it is to see what is going on at views 3 and above. This is clearly what is driving these questions all over this forum. We (note: not I) as a collective ( ;) ) have become used to hovering around at level 3 or 4 in CMBO to have our "god-like" view of the action. Saying: "Oh, some big HE bubbles!...looks like trouble over on that hill...."

I will wait for the final game to see what the explosions look like and I am sure that mods will come along.

Yet, I don't enjoy a game that plays best at level 1 and 2. Sort of forces Frankos Real Combat rules or somefink just to be able to see what is happening. Most people know that views 1 and 2 is best to get a feel for terrain contours and such but I rarely view action in TCP matches from those views. PBEM is a mix. I tend to view the whole movie from level 7 or 8 or 3 and 4, then go down the ground level to see detailed action in key areas. (P.S. I am enoying the new views and camera zoom settings.)

But even after playing CMBB for a bit, I am still having trouble seeing the "shooting" at level 3 or 4

Almost everyone for the current graphics has cited realism. No doubt about that claim. But, could visual realism be a detriment to playability? Could it?

-Sarge

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BeauCoupDinkyDau Senior Member

BeauCoupDinkyDau

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I agree sarge. I've thought a lot on this, and I think the shockwaves for explosions should have a toggle on/off ability. There is no need to show house or gun shockwaves as they really were not game aides like the explosion bubbles were. Tracers too need to be enlarged as you suggest. Maybe even a toggle there? Small, med, and large tracers, like how unit size can be enlarged to aide in gameplay? Hopefully the main gun rounds are moddable like the tracers are, as it is hard to follow the action with the more realistic looking dark grey rounds. If not, I hope enough of us whiners opt for that change as well.

I agree with the BFC guys that we need to let the new changes sink in first before we pass judgement, and I intend too. But as things are at this point, I think people are going to continue to request these enhancements even after they get the game.

For the moment though, I think bug crushing is (and properly so) the priority over code tweaks.

[ September 04, 2002, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Vader's Jester ]

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Le Tondu Senior Member

Le Tondu

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I too agree with Sarge Saunders. Seeing what is going on from view three is REAL difficult at best.

I would also like to add this to what he has said:

Are we forgetting that this is just a game? Maybe there is a fine line between gaming and realism and just maybe it has been crossed.

If it is realism that we're after then where are the bloody mangled bodies? Where are the severed limbs? Where are the cries for their mothers? They were just as much a part of the battlefield as armor thickness, ammo types, tracers, and engine noises.

I'm not being overly-critical here as I love this game. I am filled with an incredible amount of gratitude for BTS and BFC for CMBB.

My opinion is that maybe we've gone a little too far towards the realism bit. Not much, just a little and maybe it might be wise to draw back a notch or two.

Thanks for reading this.

smile.gif

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Fred Senior Member

Fred

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Agreed on all you said; tracers should be scalable and shockwaves should be a toggle.

I never was a fan of Frankos Iron Man rules; I prefer to be a wargamer, not a Company or Battaillon CO role playing gamer.

Not every gamer has a 21" monitor...

Fred

P.S. Needless to say that I played the Demo since day 1 nearly without any sleep...BFC again set the standard for wargames...as if we ever doubted

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Chad Harrison Senior Member

Chad Harrison

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I am going to go against the grain here and say that I like the new changes. I am the kind of person who enjoys a game when it is more realistic and emerses you more in the feel. The loss of shockwaves and such did not make playing any more difficult for me. I jump around the map at 2 or 3 level and that was good enough for me.

What this all comes down to is personal preference. BTS can not make everyone happy at once. Either they leave it the way it is and everyone wants change, or they change it and everyone wants it the way it was. I think that we should just get used to CMBB and realise that everytime a new CM comes out, there are going to be some major changes that we need to get used to.

Chad Harrison

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Sarge Saunders Senior Member

Sarge Saunders

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Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

There is no need to show house or gun shockwaves as they really were not game aides like the explosion bubbles were.

Agreed. I disliked the house explosions and the gun muzzle bubbles.

Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

Tracers too need to be enlarged as you suggest. Maybe even a toggle there?

Yes, I would like an option for larger tracers and gun rounds.

Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

For the moment though, I think bug crushing is (and properly so) the priority over code tweaks.

*nod* Yes. No doubt!

Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

What this all comes down to is personal preference.

Yes it does.

Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

BTS can not make everyone happy at once.

But they can with an option for large or small tracers, etc.

-Sarge

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BeauCoupDinkyDau Senior Member

BeauCoupDinkyDau

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Yeah, but Chad, we're talking about game aide options here. Would you be upset if BTS said you were only getting a camera view at level one because this is more realistic? What most of us who want these options propose is that they are optional; like unit bases or the number of trees. These are game aides, correct? We just want the same thing with tracers and shockwaves. No one here doubts CMBB is an awesome game. But we would like certain options that ensure everyone will get the most of the game. Do you not have your settings for CMBO a certain way? How would you like it if your favorit option didn't exist? This is what we are getting at. ;)

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Fred Senior Member

Fred

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Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

I am going to go against the grain here and say that I like the new changes. I am the kind of person who enjoys a game when it is more realistic and emerses you more in the feel. The loss of shockwaves and such did not make playing any more difficult for me. I jump around the map at 2 or 3 level and that was good enough for me.

What this all comes down to is personal preference. BTS can not make everyone happy at once. Either they leave it the way it is and everyone wants change, or they change it and everyone wants it the way it was. I think that we should just get used to CMBB and realise that everytime a new CM comes out, there are going to be some major changes that we need to get used to.

Chad Harrison

If I need 2 or 3 replays, just to get a hint, where my 81 mm mortars fired, it is not 'realistic', it is a burden.

You remember, it is a game...and I am the player...so give me some feedback.

What do you have against a toggle???

I do not want to force my game style on you...so don't do it to me.

Fred

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MikeyD Senior Member

MikeyD

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Honestly, in all the months of Beta group testing I don't recall a single person thought the loss of shock waves was serious enough to even post a comment on. Much of this may just be 'the shock of the new' among old CMBO players.

I will admit I do miss the more apparent CMBO mortar firing graphics, myself. And I also miss... well... not much else from the old game! I kind'a LIKE the new CMBB!

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Sarge Saunders Senior Member

Sarge Saunders

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Originally posted by MikeyD:

Honestly, in all the months of Beta group testing I don't recall a single person thought the loss of shock waves was serious enough to even post a comment on.

I am sure you are right about that. This is why it is so natural for the public to comment on the demo. The beta group is very tiny by comparison to the overall "core" CM audience. Plus it is likely that the beta testers where focused on other aspects....

I don't think it would be safe (business-wise) for a software company to assume that "since the beta testers liked XYZ that the general audience will or will not like it".

-Sarge

[ September 04, 2002, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Sarge Saunders ]

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Fetchez la Vache Senior Member

Fetchez la Vache

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I agree 100% with Sarge's initial post. Summed up my thoughts precisely.

Personally I don't demand anything be changed. In fact, without wanting to sound like a rabid fanboy, I think the amount of attention the developers pay to the people on this forum is to be lauded and applauded. It is unique in my experience. But with general feedback maybe we can help BTS make this version an even bigger hit with grogs and non-grogs alike?

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Madmatt Senior Member

Madmatt

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Make as many polls as you desire but the fact of the matter is that shockwaves were removed long ago and will not be returning. It was not a purely aesthic reason for their removal either.

We are however looking at addressing the tracer issue which we feel is more worthy of our time.

Madmatt

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Sarge Saunders Senior Member

Sarge Saunders

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Originally posted by Madmatt:

Make as many polls as you desire but the fact of the matter is that shockwaves were removed long ago and will not be returning. It was not a purely aesthic reason for their removal either.

We are however looking at addressing the tracer issue which we feel is more worthy of our time.

Madmatt

Glad to hear about the tracers.

The poll was only out of pure curiosity. I am not naïve enough to think BFC made their decisions based on a poll. BTW, I also know that the blast spheres created some programming bugs with certain video cards....or so I have heard.

-Sarge

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Fred Senior Member

Fred

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Originally posted by Madmatt:

Make as many polls as you desire but the fact of the matter is that shockwaves were removed long ago and will not be returning. It was not a purely aesthic reason for their removal either.

We are however looking at addressing the tracer issue which we feel is more worthy of our time.

Madmatt

Well,

Charles once had a good reason to put them into CMBO, it was not an accident.

So why, if not for 'realism' reasons, they are out now and not a toggle?

Fred

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Fred Senior Member

Fred

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Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

Fred, Fred, Fred, Fred, Fred. . .

Either use smilies to show what type of inflections are in your speech when you type, or reword then. You come off as mildly stand-offish. Use like so: ;)

Vader,

with all due respect, I was not talking to you...

And if I need your advice, I will politely ask for it.

Fred

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