CMBB Matchup - PzKpfw III Ausf. J versus T-34-76 Model 1941

[MikeyD]

Was it an aluminum engine or a magnesium engine? I have a vague recollection of some Soviet tank with a light alloy engine block to save weight. might be thinking T54 instead of T34.

There was mention above of the 'very poor' Soviet armor quality. My recollection was that the Germans found Sovet tank manufacture to be shoddy overall but very good in the most vital details. For example welds may have been sloppy and the armor cuts may have been ragged but the armor quality was hight and the welds were solid. My impression is that cast armor quality appears to have gone down over time as the sand casts started to wear out from overuse. The same could be said of cast-hull Shermans.

[-Havermeyer-]

Interesting stuff. I think the only thing that will save German armor in the early matchups (circa 41) is the poor quality of troopers driving the Russian tanks (as modeled in CMBB).

I expect to become thoroughly exasperated with the pathetic Russian tanker. Their inexperience (manifested in longer delay times, reduced spotting, shoddy driving and poor shooting) will be maddening enjoyable.

All in all, it will pose the average gamer a nasty problem just trying to keep the tykes alive in those fancy T-34s.

[gunnergoz]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by -Havermeyer-:

Interesting stuff. I think the only thing that will save German armor in the early matchups (circa 41) is the poor quality of troopers driving the Russian tanks (as modeled in CMBB).

I expect to become thoroughly exasperated with the pathetic Russian tanker. Their inexperience (manifested in longer delay times, reduced spotting, shoddy driving and poor shooting) will be maddening enjoyable.

All in all, it will pose the average gamer a nasty problem just trying to keep the tykes alive in those fancy T-34s.<hr></blockquote>

That's quite a sneer you wear there!

Russian troop quality at the beginning was as good as it was at the end, if we're speaking fo fighting spirit and willingness to engage the enemy...the problem lay in leadership and the effect of institutional shock from years of purges and the sudden invasion. Not to mention the fact that the Russians seldom had good communications at the unit level and often not at the command levels either. Oh, yes, did we mention that most Soviet tank commanders had to double as gunners as well.

But you're quite right, it will be a challenge to replicate the victory that those "tykes" won with their lives.

IIRC, a 19-year-old Russian male in 1941 had a 10% chance to still be alive in 1945...

[Keith]

According to Glantz, another reason the Russians lost a lot of heavy tanks during the initial period of the war (June) was that many of the newer tanks had not yet been issued any ammunition! Many Russian tanks were also lost due to mechanical breakdown and lack of fuel.

[Andreas]

Troop experience and troop quality are really two different, albeit related, issues.

Most of the Red Army tankers on the heavies do not seem to have had experience with their machines. I believe that is what is being referred to. Unfortunately a dashing spirit won't make up for being unable to handle your weapon, period.

Add to that command inability, weakness of supply systems/trains leading to lack of ammo and fuel at the sharp end, and hangovers from reorganisation, and you have the recipe for a desaster. Which, unsurprisingly, was what happened to the Red Army in the summer of 1941.

[-Havermeyer-]

Can't recall, but I imagine the organizational failings of the Great Socialist state will manifest themselves as supply problems in CMBB. I recall some squads would have perhaps less than one gun/man (or was that just a screwup in one of the released screenshots)?

Similarly, I think when you hit an early summer game against a german opponent one should be prepared for some nasty surprises. You click on that sloped and sexy T-34 only to discover 3-5 rounds of AT ammunition!! EEK!

[Commissar]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Keith:

According to Glantz, another reason the Russians lost a lot of heavy tanks during the initial period of the war (June) was that many of the newer tanks had not yet been issued any ammunition! Many Russian tanks were also lost due to mechanical breakdown and lack of fuel.<hr></blockquote>

I believe either Glanzt or Erickson also mentioned that the gross majority of Russian tank losses did not occur from the Germans detroying them but in fact were lost by the tanks breaking down on the road due to the serious state of disrepair most Russian tanks were in. That combined with the better leadership and tactics of the Germans made 1941 a bad year to be Russian.

You better enjoy beating the snot out of the Russians in 1941-42. The table starts to turn in mid 1943 and becomes an avalanche in 1944.

[Runyan99]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by gunnergoz:

Russian troop quality at the beginning was as good as it was at the end, if we're speaking fo fighting spirit and willingness to engage the enemy...the problem lay in leadership and the effect of institutional shock from years of purges and the sudden invasion.<hr></blockquote>

I disagree. Most of what I read intimtates that a great number of Russian soldiers were less than enthusiastic about fighting for "Uncle" Joe Stalin and the Communist regime in 1941. I find lots of accounts of Russians volunteering to surrender, even as late as the Taifun battles and the drive on Moscow.

[Keith]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Runyan99:

I disagree. Most of what I read intimtates that a great number of Russian soldiers were less than enthusiastic about fighting for "Uncle" Joe Stalin and the Communist regime in 1941. I find lots of accounts of Russians volunteering to surrender, even as late as the Taifun battles and the drive on Moscow.<hr></blockquote>

On the other hand, I find numerous accounts of German commanders being incredulous about how the Soviets refused to surrender when they were hopelessly surrounded. The German chief of staff, Halder, expressed this many times in his diary and was extremely distressed with the number of casualties the Germans were taking to clean up encircled pockets of Russians.

As another example of the tenacity of the Russian soldier, very often German accounts of battle in the West and Afrika are expressed in terms of a 'sport' with rules. In the East there wass none of this sentiment. I have read many times where encircled Russian troops and tanks layed low and let the German armored spearheads roll by, only to ambush the "soft" supply and administrative columns. This caused the Germans to siphon off tanks to protect the supply columns. Even General Guederian was ambushed by maurading Russian tanks while visiting his forward troops.

The Russian soldier fought bravely when he was trained and well led and well equipped. Also, when the extent of the German's war of extermination was apparent, the Russians rallied around Stalin and were much less likely to surrender.

As a final note, I would like to point out that many of the surrounded Russian troops managed to evade capture and went on the form the nucleus of the Partisan movement, which became quite formidable later in the war.

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: Keith ]</p>

[Abn_Ranger87]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MikeyD:

[QB]Was it an aluminum engine or a magnesium engine? I have a vague recollection of some Soviet tank with a light alloy engine block to save weight. might be thinking T54 instead of T34.

<hr></blockquote>

Your thinking of modern Soviet tanks. The T-54/55, T-62, T-64, and even the T-72 incorporated a lightweight magnesium engine. Practice was discontinued after such material was found to contribute greatly to said vehicles being catastophically destroyed after being hit.

[Iron Chef Sakai]

Hehe, well you guys asked for it, my next post is going to be long, drawn out, and in my own words, i can't say when or wich topic it will show up in, but rest assured it will come to be. :cool:

[gunnergoz]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai:

Hehe, well you guys asked for it, my next post is going to be long, drawn out, and in my own words, i can't say when or wich topic it will show up in, but rest assured it will come to be. :cool: <hr></blockquote>

You wouldn't be related to Stephen Ambrose, would you?

[M Hofbauer]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai:

4) Great armament. At the time of it's debut on the battlefield, most other AFV's were equipped with 37mm and 50mm main guns. The T-34 was armed with a good medium velocity 76.2mm gun.<hr></blockquote>

an interesting but not totally inconsequential side detail is that the T-34 (and most other russian tanks at that time) used the DT as machine guns, which used a 49-jam drum (therefore usually only filled with 47 rounds), as opposed to the Pz III which used the excellent MG 34 with belted ammo.

[PEIPER#1]

The Story of The First T-34 Encounter With The German Invaders...

On july 8 1941- less than 3 weeks after the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union commence- a lone tank of a type the germans had not previously encountered took on an entire panzer division near the Dnieper River. after runing over a 37mm anti-tank gun whose shells had literaly bounce off is armor, the new soviet tank knocked out one

PzIII and scattered a large formation of other tanks. the strange tank then procceded to fight its solitary way poorly handled though they were the first ecounteres with the invader. nine miles behind german lines before finally being knocked out from behind by a 100mm artillery piece. . the first few Soviets tanks gave the germans a rude shock, a close examination of a disable examples confirmed that the Red Army possessed a fighting vehicle technically superior to anything the Wehrmacht had at its disposal..

[Keith]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PEIPER#1:

The Story of The First T-34 Encounter With The German Invaders...

On july 8 1941- less than 3 weeks after the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union commence-<hr></blockquote>

Actually the Germans encountered the T-34 and KV tanks earlier than this. The Russians had several hundred of the newer models in their tank divisions that were involved in the first encirclement battles. There were several big tank counter attacks that occured early on in all three fronts (North, Center, South).

The German infantry were particularly screwed because the infantry divisions had very few of the 50mm AT guns at this time.

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Keith ]</p>

[Liebchen]

While I largely respect and admire the accomplishments of the Russian troops in the Great Patriotic War, it remains a fact that many of their tankers in the early part of the war were very green and poorly led, and that these factors greatly aggravated their morale.

I recall reading more than once of tankers abandoning their tanks after being raked -- but undamaged by -- small caliber fire. I wonder if this will be modeled in CMBB?