Major Patch Needed For CM

[Commissar]

Perhaps the commander was partially Finnish or something.

Anyway, you won't get a patch for CM other than the current one. As far as BTS is concerned, CM is FINISHED. You can rant and whine about CMBB though once it's out.

[-Havermeyer-]

Seph... what was your total tab with shipping, and what country are from? Just curious.

[Seph]

Bazooka Guy was in the open in front of my Lynx...as far as the commander goes he still should have been con fety...he was in open ground too...Seph

[JasonC]

Nobody is asking the right question. Why oh why were you wasting 15 rounds of 105mm HE on an already out-of-it HQ? Fire a few times, see him duck. Pick another target.

If he rallies, you can always scare the heck out of him again with another firecracker. While he is "only" panicked, he can't do a bleeding thing. As you get used to CM, you will realize that a "morale kill" is about as good as a kill period.

You were shooting at something that was already "dead". "But I wanted him to go all the way to eliminated!" Duh. But it was a silly thing to want, based on misunderstanding the game system.

If you must finish off the cowerers, for score or your whims or whatever, send an infantry squad to point blank. A broken enemy will probably surrender, and will die if they don't. (In open ground they will surrender to a tank, too, if within about 60 yards). At worst they will run far, far away.

As for your Lynx, you can go read the medal of honor citations at the US center for military history sometime to find out what some men did with bazookas. (About half of them awarded posthumously, to be sure). While being shot at with everything up to the 88s on Tigers.

Finally, realize that units on the map mean a group of people is near there using cover, and others shooting at them mean they are firing in their general direction or perhaps see a few guys. Read the %exposure number. That number and will tell you about how many men could realistically be seen in that terrain, or for what lengths of time out of each minute. One man in 25% cover is not really being seen at all by the shooters, about 3/4 of the time.

You will find some firepower undermodling in CMBO. MGs in particular, in open ground and at range, aren't as deadly as they really were. They will still pin things, especialy if you have 2-3 covering the same patch of ground. But they are somewhat underpowered - already being improved for CMBB.

HE is not underpowered. And most of the time an infantry AT team under any kind of fire fails to get off any more shots. Their best chance comes with the first, from ambush. High quality, well led, in cover, not much fire - those can all help.

If there is any amount of infantry around the targeted vehicle, they will usually suppress a zook team after the first round. That's why infantry goes along with, even ahead of, tanks. Especially in terrain with lots of cover the tanks must pass close to.

If you just take your tanks and run up at any infantry you see and merrily hose them from 10 meters, you will lose your tanks while not hurting the infantry terribly much. Tanks beat infantry by staying out of the short range of their AT weapons and blasting them safely - at ranges where infantry only has rifles and MGs with which to reply. Which can't hurt tanks (once buttoned up anyway).

Welcome to CM, and I hope this helps.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Seph:

Bazooka Guy was in the open in front of my Lynx...as far as the commander goes he still should have been con fety...he was in open ground too...Seph

In all honesty - go find a patch of "open ground" out in the country and lie down it it. Open ground is rarely really open - billiard table flat ground does not exist in nature; the terrain shown in CM's 3D world is an abstraction.

[Foobar]

This is a tribute...To The Best Post in the World...The Best Post in the World....

It was made by Sir Bruno Weiss on page 1. Lindan, if youre reading this, please add this thread to the archives.

I'm practically crying over here.. Oh man...

[Seph]

Well am glad everyone got thier tiny rocks off on my post...Still havent figure out how to place the flags in the editor..and yes I read the book...Seph..ok manuel

[mike8g]

Regarding flag placement:

Go to map view (from the editor).

You can move around the flags like all other units ("P" command).

Marcus

[Caesar]

Originally posted by Gyrene

Sole survivors in CM are ridiculously hard to kill

This is probably just due to simple statistics. AFAIK CM calculates the chances of each individual man of a squad being hit. If you start out with say a 20% chance of hitting each individual with shell fire and have 10 men then you have a very good chance of hitting a couple each turn. By the time you get down to one man however, you have only a 1 in 5 chance of hitting him.

Is this realistic? Who knows, maybe he is the one man who found a ditch to hide in or whatever (after all - he has already outlasted all his buddies) It does however, seem overkill to use a 105 to take out one man. A machine gun would appear to be a better bet.

[Captain Wacky]

Originally posted by Seph:

Well am glad everyone got thier tiny rocks off on my post...Still havent figure out how to place the flags in the editor..and yes I read the book...Seph..ok manuel

Next time it would do you better to ask questions before you kick down the door and fire at everything in the room. You expect the game designers, who have spent thousands of hours meticulously researching statistics and balancing the game to change it because you don't think something "feels" right? If you want some aspect of the game changed you'd better have some data to back it up, or the grogs here will damn near tear you to pieces.

Everyone here had to endure the plethora of posters who first appeared when the game came out, bitching about how the might & invincible Tiger was no longer might & invincible. They didn't have a lick of data to back them up, just a vague feeling they had cuz they wanted the German tanks to be badass. Instead CM chose to model them realistically. I know which game I'd want to play.

Some of the other guys have already explained part of your complaint as abstraction within the game. You mentioned that your Sherman 105mm shot 15 times at a German commander and all he did was panic. That leaves us wondering about a lot of things--what sort of cover was he in, how many men were part of the unit, what was their experience, how far away were they from the tank, what was the tank's experience...Nearly all "anomolies" in CM can be explained easily, but sometimes freak events do occur. Maybe you suffered one of these, but I doubt it. I'm sure that with more information we could enlighten you as to why you experienced what you did in CM. JasonC has already given you a ton of info about the game that might answer some of your questions.

[ June 23, 2002, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Captain Wacky ]

[kump]

You mean the Tiger is not "mighty and invincible"? Well heck, that's not what the owner's manual says. And I've got a lot of other WWII tactical wargames experience that promotes otherwise. How's that for cold hard facts?

I'm still amazed at how deadly the 37mm equipped M5A1 is in CM. They have a high rate of fire and knock out Mk-IVs like bowling pins. Of course, at really long ranges, they are in trouble, but for CM in your face style, they is kick'n!

Oh yea, I forgot what this thread is about. Lone guy with iron underwear. Stuff happens.

[Seanachai]

Well, Berli told me about this thread, so I though I'd wander over and see how it was going.

I'm quite proud to see the number of people (mostly Grogs, of course, or, at least 'CM' Grogs) who responded quite pleasantly to this young person and new arrival.

Now, there was the point raised, of course, as to who would show up to hammer him into the pavement first, Grogs or Cess.

This is a base libel. First, we of the Cesspool are not just a bunch of abusive thugs who automatically show up to belittle fools. It is true that we do not suffer fools lightly, and I am assuming that that is what the original poster was referring to. But that we, without any sense of charity or Forum feeling will show up to taunt and abuse? Well, that's just wrong.

Secondly, the idea that any Forum Grog could get the jump on, or out-do, any member of the Cesspool when it comes to mocking idjits and half-wits, bespeaks a simple-mindedness that is almost 'magical'.

Now, all that said, and while taking very good note of the courteous and thoughtful responses this (at least at the end of his post) heavy-handed newbie received, I do have to say that the following:

Originally posted by Seph:

Well am glad everyone got thier tiny rocks off on my post...

was bloody rude.

Therefore, since the courteous Grogs have had their chance to respond to this newest and most 'knowledgeable' and 'experienced' of our members, I shall now endeavour to give him a 'nice and courteous' Cesspool response.

He chuckled to himself while he awaited the havoc his Lynx commander was about to execute on the lone bazooka that had the audacity and foolishness to confront his mighty, 20mm armed battlefield behemoth. The bazooka weilder had gone for that classic, 'gunfight at the OK corral' mode, the fool! And now that lone soldier was crouched merely meters away on the bowling lawn green of empty terrain, and he waited for the 20mm shells to impact the chest of the single figure that was crouching before his mighty AFV.

But what was this?! His tank had fired, and there was no sudden eruption of blood and organs as the shells ripped into that figure that was all too clearly crouching only inches in front of his tank! A tank, by all the gods, any one of which could destroy any infantry formation that had ever existed, let alone kill this one, lone figure kneeling right in front of his armament!

Fury tore through him! Cheated, by God! Screwed over by game makers who hadn't the least conception of what a 20mm cannon was capable of! He knew from his own endless personal experience of having actually fought in WWII, not to mention every major or minor conflict since, the personal interviews he conducted with survivors in all those battles, and the endless research he'd done, reading original, first-hand accounts, test ground reports, and innumerable histories, that there was simply no way a lone bazooka weilder could have survived long enough to take out a mighty Lynx! This was almost as bad as the survival of a lone HQ soldier against his 105mm AFV!

Did BTS think he was a child! Some fool who was willing to pay $45(US, an actual freely convertible 'hard currency', not like 'Aussie Dollars') for a game that did not correctly model his own understanding of weapons capabilities?!

Wait...perhaps, just perhaps...that lone bazooka weilder wasn't actually crouched on top a green ping pong table. And, just perhaps, his understanding of just how often 20mm and MGs actually connected with a lone individual was simplistic. And, equally, he'd been taking the entire, graphical representation of combat as being a Real Time, 100% accurate representation, and it turned out that that was mistaken (which would explain, for example, why his Machine-Gunner seemed to be merely 'strolling' away from danger, rather than dashing like an adrenalized gopher), but that rather it was merely an extremely good representation of what was occuring, then his anger knew no bounds!!!

Grammont! Moylan! You bastards! You've tricked me! You and your efforts to bring to the computer a truly good wargame! Go on, you swine, call in your large, bald-headed freakish henchman and subdue me, but you'll never be able to stifle my cries of betrayal! I thought every time I issued a command, I was watching three, slow moving guys cross a bocchi ball court, and now you're telling me that it's actually anywhere from 1 to 12 guys making use of every available cover, not every square bloody inch of which is graphically represented on the screen of my (extremely mid-level, but far more capable than even a higher rated Windows PC box) Macintosh computer?!

I will not rest until you, and all your works, are exposed for the misleading and inaccurate betrayals that they are! You fools! Did you think that I wouldn't see through your little ability to present to us the best wargame of its class in years, and not see where it didn't match my own almost completely non-sensical, illusory, and almost half-witted understandings of war and military equipment?! Grammont! Can you hear me, Grammont?! I'll find out where you live! I'll never rest until you've paid for each and every point at which my own stupidity isn't born out by this game! And your little Moylan too!

Do you know, in all honesty, that when I first started playing the Demo, I was actually moving my units to take advantage of the cover represented by individual 'trees'? Good gods, did I feel like a half-wit when I realized that those 'graphical elements' merely represented modeled terrain types, rather than individual trees. That's why I normally feel everyone should show all courtesy to players who show up and display a certain 'innocense' regarding the game engine, graphical representation, and an actual, Real World™ appreciation of what weapons systems can actually achieve. Of couse, I think it behooves a newcomer to actually make some effort to understand these elements before becoming arrogantly dismissive.

Seph should probably grab a big ol' handful of the same sort of 'sudden realization', and stop shouting about how he's paid big bucks for a 'real wargame' rather than his childlike understanding of what a real wargame is.

Thank you, all, for your patience.

The previous post has been a service of the Cesspool 'What Shall We Do With a Drunken Poster' emergency response network.

[Captain Wacky]

^

|

|

|

Too long for my American attention span, but I'm sure it was funny anyw...Oooh! A blue ca...Hey, that dog has a puffy tail! Here puff, here boy!

*Edited to correct a grossly humorous and stupid confusion between the words tale and tail.*

[ June 23, 2002, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: Captain Wacky ]

[Michael Emrys]

Seanachai ,

You misspelled 'wielder'. Three times. Just thought you'd want to know.

Michael

[Seph]

LETS Keep the Posts to 50 words or less...if you wanna rant go watch Dennis Miller...Seph

[Seph]

Flags ...thanx Mike8g....Seph

[bfamily33]

Originally posted by Seanachai:

...which would explain, for example, why his Machine-Gunner seemed to be merely 'strolling' away from danger, rather than dashing like an adrenalized gopher, ...

Steph:

Take a swig, relax and you'll slowly understand the game and this place.

[bfamily33]

Originally posted by Seph:

LETS Keep the Posts to 50 words or less...if you wanna rant go watch Dennis Miller...Seph

Oh, I think one of them bottles just zipped by. Bruno, I think them lights are about to go out.

Where's Maximus when you need him?

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Seph:

LETS Keep the Posts to 50 words or less...if you wanna rant go watch Dennis Miller...Seph

Lad, I completely understand, and I'm sorry for exposing your inability to understand longer or more complicated posts.

Although, as you list in your profile that you are a 'student' you will probably some day have to come to grips with the fact that educated people are able to grasp blocks of text that exceed '50' words.

And as for Dennis Miller, as amusing as he is, he's more often than not these days simply 'reciting' what's been written for him.

I actually wrote my response.

And don't you think it's unpleasantly on par with the arrogance that many feel you've already displayed here to insist that people who respond to you 'limit' their responses to your criteria for a 'correct' response?

Perhaps if you showed a little appreciation and acceptance, let alone understanding, of the many good responses that the Board's Grogs have already made for you? Seriously, Priest, kump, and even JasonC (in his own, Groggly way) attempted to answer your concerns. Others, while not addressing your specific concerns, were courteous to you and advised you to read more of the Forum and actually learn something about the game and the process that created it before you dismissed it. You acknowledged none of them, apparently because no one responded with what you wanted to hear.

In general, this isn't a receptive Forum for those who insist others dumb down their responses to meet the requirements of arrogant half-wits.

People with open minds, who actually read responses and take them into consideration, are treated very well.

But be aware of this fact, lad. We're under no impetus to meet your 'requirements' as regards a response. And the least of your problems will be 'old, daft Seanachai' if you continue to piss people off.

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Seanachai ,

You misspelled 'wielder'. Three times. Just thought you'd want to know.

Michael

You know, I kept seeing that while I re-read, and something kept nagging at me about it. But I blew it off. This would mean, of course, that no one is without error. This is what has kept me previously from demanding that BTS restructure the game to conform with my understandings.

But you are right, Grog Emrys, and I abase myself in my contrition.

Not that we still haven't got our eye on you, Emrys.

[Tanaka]

See guys, that’s what happens when the school is over...

Why 24hours/day; 365 days/year school doesn’t exist for some kids puzzles me

Now you know what some times a teacher has to put up every day… definitely a profession to respect

[Goanna]

Or, more to the point, let's keep IQs to 100 points or greater.

Hmmmm, fifty words or less. (1)Get (2)a (3)furry (4)brown (5)dog (6)up (7)ya, (8)you (9)dough (10)headed (11)unappreciative {I'll count that as two words, since it's kinda long} (13)cretin.

Ahhhhhhh, that's better. I can't believe it took more than 40 posts for someone to do this boob some justice, even after the patient and well crafted disclaimer. See, eventually, you gotta use the brick or you don't even get their attention.

[Sgt. Beavis]

As for the 105 mm firing at the HQ, yes, that is retarded. Sometimes infantry will be out in the open, 1 or 2 guys left, and HE can land all around them and they survive. If they are in a forest, that shouldn't matter much. Their experience level shouldn't matter either, unless you think that elite troops have bulletproof foreheads. Perhaps not all the guys should die or be wounded, but they should be broken... and they should not come back easily, if at all, within the time frame of a CM battle.

I agree with JasonC when he says that there are usually better ways to use the ammo. However, it still is annoying when you target a group of guys, 3 or less, with HE, and it is nearly impossible to knock them out (kill/wound) without expending 20 million rounds, when previously it only took 2 or 3 to kill the other 7 guys in the squad. Pretty much the only way to get rid of them completely (since even regs will almost always rally within 2 or 3 minutes after taking 80% losses and start firing at your guys again... which is quite far-fetched and not in keeping with reality) is to charge in with bayonets, hand grenades, and rifle butts.

The number of guys left should not matter. It was exceedingly rare to target individual opposing soldiers. You would do area fire into a location the guys were in. Therefore, just because there is only one or two guys there does not mean they are virtually impossible to hit. For each guy in that squad, there is basically an equal chance to be hit by incoming fire, regardless of how many of the squad members are left. The game seems to calculate hits based upon the numbers of men in the squad that are left.

And I would tend to think that 20mm autocannon fire is a bit too ineffective against infantry. Use of 20 and 37mm autos against ground targets was common and pretty nasty for those it was being used against, based upon the things I have read and heard about those situations.

By the way, I love the game. I greatly repsect the time and effort BTS has put into it. So there. But it is not perfect, and it is interesting to think about how to make it better. Of course, I understand it will never be perfect, but it's a unattainable goal worth aiming at.

[Sgt. Beavis]

oh and by the way, Seph.... Don't worry too much about what some of the people on here have said about you. It is perfectly ok for you to post what you did, and to ask questions. And...*gasp* to question things about CM.

It is kinda like being Jesus, and standing before the Pharisees at times, but just ignore the loudmouth people on here who will sometimes say "Well, Steve said so" or "do a search" or some other nonsense. Say what you feel, only with the caveat of not being insulting or posting totally off the wall comments... Sort of like the completely stupid and useless Peng threads that are all over this board. But no one will complain about those, even though they have nothing to do with CM, WW2, or history.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Seanachai:

But you are right, Grog Emrys, and I abase myself in my contrition.

That's quite all right, S. old boy [waves dismissively]. I only brought it up because I figured you were the only one on the board with sufficient gray matter remaining to appreciate my proofreading talents (which unfortunately have been known to lapse...).

Michael