Roborat Posted January 2, 2002 Share Posted January 2, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42: It'll probably be around until ammunition evolves into something other than conventional bullets.<hr></blockquote> Except in the Canadian Army, where the powers-that-be have decided that it is "inhumane"(?!?!) to shoot people with them, so they are being phased out. Got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Of course, these are that same people who retired the Chinook helicopter, but kept those geriatric Sea Kings around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abn_Ranger87 Posted January 2, 2002 Share Posted January 2, 2002 The U.S. Army considers the 12.7mm machine gun to be for use against enemy equipment only. We always interpreted that to mean his helmet, LBE, buttons, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shriker Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 Re: <<A .5 cal "rifle" is currently deployed in the Canadian Army for plinking AFVs. The "rifle" is, of course, scoped and the soldiers are trained as snipers. The difference is that instead of picking off human targets, they're targetting weapon systems.>> Just a heads up that December 2001 "Jane's International Defense Review" magazine has an article about this very thing, entitled "Material Killers". .50 calibre scoped rifles are indeed mentioned along with many others and I find .50 calibres in CM dandy for taking out halftracks and will even take some shots at the rear armor of enemy Panzers if I'm given the chance (don't recall any specific incident off hand, or what the outcome may have been). Just fyi, -Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 I did a test with a lot of M3 halftracks (A lot...like 40 or 50) firing their .50's at a Panther to see if I could get a gun damage hit, but nothing. After the initial volley at the TC (Who got away cleanly even though all the HT's were less than 50m away) the HT's would no longer target the Panther, and so they proceeded to die one by one. That type of Gun Damage hit described at the top of the thread is likely to only happen against vehicles that gan be killed by a .50 Too bad. Gyrene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 Anyone here ever kill a Panther or a StuG w/ a .50cal to the flanks or rear? At what range and angle? Thanks, Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 Silvio, I don't think it can be done, at least against Panthers, as my quick test showed (I fired at the rear of the Panther from almost point blank range). After the tank buttons up the .50's wont shoot at the tank anymore. Gyrene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 Thanks Gyrene. I didn' think it would be likely. I assumed I would need a rear shot to have any chance. I think even the StuG has around 40mm armor in the rear. Oh well. In another fight, I had 2 Stuarts disobey orders and not even fire at a buttoned up Panther (frontal aspect). I was pissed...I was hoping for the "weak shot" kill after hearing my sobs about 37/40mm kills on Panther/Tiger/KT, etc. Like you were saying, maybe the crew only finds the TC to be a realistic target; my opponent has so far kept every tank buttoned from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 People keep claiming they had killed Pz IV class tanks with .50cals, from the rear of course. When I tested it with a halftrack at point black, it didn't work. We have to keep in mind that the tripod (infantry team) version of the .50cal probably has a huge advantage over a loose vehicle-mounted on. I don't know about the flex mount on the halftrack, but a MG Jeep is much less likely to exploit the .50cal penetration capablity than the team (in CMBO). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene: I still think that the Ma Deuce is undermodelled in CM, especially when it comes to targetting troops in Light Buildings & Wooden Bunkers, where it should play Holy Havoc with both. As it stands the .50 is treated as little more than an overgrown MMG .30 Gyrene<hr></blockquote> Huh? The .50cal in CMBO rocks compared to the .30cal. Of course, *both* very weak for my taste. But the .50cal kinda approches what I would think appropriate for the .30cal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by coe: Were there any axis equivalents of the .50 cal <hr></blockquote> I think you can count the 20mm automatic. Both were used for anti-aircraft and on-aircraft purposes and as main weapon on light vehicles. The big difference for ground combat is that the Axis solution was to convert light vehicles into gun carriers, giving up their transport ability, whereas the .50cal preserved the original vehicle. On the other hand, the 20mm in dedicated vehicles can usually be used from a protected position, the .50cal not. But I find their actual use to be very similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted January 3, 2002 Author Share Posted January 3, 2002 I did a test with about 50 .50 cal mg, against the Hetzer, at ranges up to 50m. I was never able to damage its gun. The best I could do was immobilize it with a frontal or angle shot. I could always eventually Ko it with a shot perpindicular to its side. This gun damage must be 1 in a billion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swift Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 FAS have a nice picture showing the AP capabilities of the M2. They state that the latest .50 cal AP ammunition is a .30 cal tungsten penetrator in a .50 cal sabot round. The Swedish army uses the .50 cal semi-automatic weapon that is manufactured by Browning (US Army calls it M82A1A) and shoots armour piercing high explosive incendiary ammunition. If anyone is interested there is a RealPlayer film about the M82 and the ammunition: 50cal56k.ram <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Hanns: Hell, you can buy the things legally in the US as a civilian. Trust me I've looked <hr></blockquote> US gun regulations are sick... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 It's called a free armed citizenry. I know most of the rest of the world has had that taken from them by now (if they ever did have it), but it works just fine here in the U.S. Constitution. [ 01-06-2002: Message edited by: Lee ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Rock Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 Don't know the specs on the new SLAP round. The specs on an M2 for penetration are: At 200 meters--- 28 inches of packed earth or 16 inch thick log wall or 14 inches of sand or 1 inch thick armor plate (23 mm at zero degrees) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 Ouch, I was mistaken. The CMBO .50cal team can in fact penetrate the 20mm armor on the back of AFVs based on the Pz IV chassis: Pz IV, Jagdpanzer IV, Panzer IV/70 and StuG IV. Interestingly, the StuGIII is not vulnerable because the back hull of the uparmored Pz III chassis is 30mm. Now, if it had a bit more punch against infantry, I'd be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 The Germans never had an infantry equivalent of the .50 cal (12.7mm) for their ground troops. Yes, the Luftwaffe had tons of them for their aircraft but no MGs of such calibre were made for the ground forces. Previous replies already covered the usage of the 20mm for the ground role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 The Germans did have 13 and 15 mm MGs for aircraft use, and some ground mounts with them were pushed into the field in the late war. But the main German equivalent wasn't an MG proper, it was the 20mm FLAK, in single or quad mounts. They deployed oodles of them (though some CM players use even more than they really had). The US deployed so many 50 cals in WW II because they planned the design of the force back in the days of the blitzkrieg, and they thought the Luftwaffe would be a much more serious part of the enemy force the ground army would face, than it proved. When the German planes didn't show up for the party, the 50s did good work against ground targets. German FLAK was more heavily occupied shooting at its originally intended targets - planes - but still did plenty of "switch hitting". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 The M2HB became a preferred anti-sniper weapon because it penetrated masonry. Many snipers, behind what they thought of as cover (and was for small arms) were vulnerable to the penetration power of the M2HB. At the same time the M2HB had a high enough rate of fire to be an effective suppression weapon, while the 20mm, while powerful, was overkill against ground targets (although death to light AFVs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coe Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 Hmmm, yes but the 20mm is much bigger than the 50 cal? Besides the slight explosion effect it seems the 50 cal might be more versatile. What were the 20 mm penetration stats? Did the Germans make any adjustments lets say to their half tracks with the 50 cal around... likewise did they do anything to their own machine guns when then found their MG42s couldn't knock out a half track? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Affentitten Posted January 8, 2002 Share Posted January 8, 2002 Here is a little demonstration video: Marine Sniper School demo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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