Biltong Posted November 19, 2002 Author Share Posted November 19, 2002 ….You can also get the rules here…. Welcome SNARKER!! Biltong, I've sent you the map PK was FIRST – The Man!! Mother of a city map… on the map thing:… SCREENY – good points… would be nice if others also post ideas re what makes/could make good/interesting campaign maps…. BTW guys I need more down to earth straightforward steppe; open or light trees… Difficult I know, but that’s the real challenge: to make a map like this interesting and ‘fightable’ with subtle folds and a dry riverbed; a little clump of trees here – a single farm there… Only the best designers can make it work We need a lot of these – the 1st 3 months of the campaign crawls through terrain like that. …I'm going to consider him broken down…. SNARKER – the bloody coward went AWOL, that’s what… New Rule 10 added yesterday? Men/armor etc missing because of the Casualties parameter are handled like normal casualties. MIA/sickness/frostbite/lost/armor broken down etc etc (mostly gonorrhea They will get replaced the next time you have a normal replacement (56) and the random number there will determine the replacement quality. I majorly kicked butt COMMANDER ? That’s it – 1am off t’bed – Screeny – look’s like you found a bug and Schroener: looks interesting, but I’m stuffed – of to bed & wife – t’morrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmo Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Biltong Started my first battle last night. The rules certainly have me viewing my units differently. My core units are getting the good cover and the aux's are the pointy end of the sword. Question: When creating my real battle (step 48) I had 700 points to buy arty/air. However a QB with a 2000 point limit would only allow me to buy up to 350 points worth even when set to unrestricted. I decided to use the other 350 points to buy more infantry of the type I had in the Aux QB (step 47). Is that the way to handle the extra points? Thanks. Elmo P.S. - After further review, according to Note #7, it looks like I could have bought whatever I wanted within the point limits. [ November 19, 2002, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Elmo ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal DI FOLCO Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 This system looks very cool ! I had a gripe with the loadsh*t of "dice rolls" necessary so I "improved" the Excel Parameter sheet with an automatic "Roll" column that gives 1-10 roll for each entry You just have to refresh via F9, print the sheet and check the modifiers to determine the parameters :cool: ! If someone is interested and author allows I'd post this one (or send it to author so he could update on his site ) (also posted in "Files are online" thread ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 I'm using the rules to run platoon of Pz IVDs through campaign. Of course I had to modify rules a bit to get enough infantry, but seems to work. I use accumulated scrounging points to determine if I can upgrade a tank in some point of campaign. I also tone down the experience gain a lot after those tanks get regular. Also crew casualty for tank for me prevents any experience gain due to need to train replacement up to current standard. So far 2 battles, 1 major, 1 tactical victory. 1 Pz IVD out of 4 lost, all crew KIA/WIA (killed by inf.). Replacement Pz IVD green. Cheers, M.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaegerMeister Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 One quick question, though i've probably over-looked it, what experince level should the auxilary force be?...same as core or random roll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screeny Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Jaegermeister: I had teh same question posted before allready but still no answer.... REST: ANY BODY AN IDEA I WANT TO MOVE INTO BATTLE.!!!!!! (remember you are dealing with an addict here ) gr Screeny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apache Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Biltong, Got the rules, thanks. Just a thought. Is there any value in preparing a Word FAQ type doc that can be posted at the sites with them? That may stop the posts eventually getting buried, along with the answers you have provided to people's questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSulo Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Re: the quality for the Aux force You use the 56 Normal Replacements rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtaskagain Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 I'm confused as to how to purchase auxilliaries. I'm going to be using the standard force but modified to regular experience because i'm not very tactically adept. I've calculated the number of points of auxiliary units but I get lost for the next step. How do I let the computer pick them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biltong Posted November 19, 2002 Author Share Posted November 19, 2002 Ø Hi Guys Ø Ø OK – e-mails first Ø BTW – don’t feel that you have to e-mail me with problems because I’ll be p’d off if you post them…. Just the other way around… lets sort out all problems now, before I go onto 42 South… the cleaner it is now the easier it’s going to make my and your lives down the line…. Ø Also – posting it on the board will stimulate other ideas/crits/comments etc., which will help to make the rules better for everybody…. Ø Don’t spare my feelings – I’ve got a thick skin Ø Open discussion is the best way. Ø Biltong Ø Also saves me copying and pasting Ø Ø Ø CLAUDE Ø Thanks for all the work you put into the campaign rules, I am enjoying them > a lot. My apologies for not posting this to the Battlefront forum, but they > want cookies enabled, and I am very much against allowing cookies on my > machine. Yep - bloody kids keep on spilling crumbs on my keyboard... >1. The sheet labeled "Paramaters" should be labeled "Parameters". Done >2. In the sheet labeled "Core", is the column labeled "KIA" equivalent to > "Eliminated"? Well picked up! - Copied it over from the old rules... Changed it to Casualties with a Note 1: "Casualties include Casualties, KIA and Captured" at bottom of the page and color-coded Blue. Also scanned through Rules and changed all KIA etc to Casualties. And added this: "For the purposes of these Rules Casualties include Casualties, KIA and Prisoners" underneath the Heading: After Battle Parameters (just above 50) > Also, the "Mortar" column is used by the fourth platoon, which might not > have mortars. Would a better name for the column be "Equipment"? Left the mortar 'column lines' there in case of Scrounged Mortars. This Experience Modifier is definitely just for Mortars. I'm worried that if I say 'Equipment' the players might think it counts for fausts, AT rifles etc. > 3. In the sheet labeled "Favor", shouldn't the phrase "Lost or Drew Battle" > be "Lost or Drawn Battle"? Done! Also, "men kiled" should be "men killed". No - I don't think so - when my men die they are definitely kiled the ****es Done! > While these are trivial comments, I believe you want to know. Quite right! My English isn't the best (I'm Afrikaans speaking) and I wish someone would check all of the rules etc.. Please feel free - it will help to give the rules a more polished look. Much appreciated Biltong SCOTT Thanks. I knew the answer had to be simple. Hope it was , but let me know as soon as something isn't very clear... it's a work in progress and this one: 41 South is quite important, because it will set the standard for the 15? Other’s to come... Most, if not all of them will be a repeating a lot of the rules and the clearer we make them now, the easier for all guys who start playing later - so let me have the questions HELMUT Ø Have got some original maps, better map pieces of the southfront at Stalino but thats beyond 41 south. Nevertheless they give an idea of the area, so tomorrow I`ll try to draw another map. > Medium size, is that 2 to 3 km? I would say anything between 800 x 800 and 2000 x 1500 - a lot of guys battle with large maps on their PC's :-( > The first few battles were fast long-range with lots of meeting engagements, am I right? So these maps have to be deep > Greetings From my reading (very limited sources) it looked like the Axis were attacking/assaulting a lot of fixed positions in the first couple of weeks at least - thereafter it gets a bit hazy... My understanding is that ME's were quite scarce in the war, but I might be wrong.... what made you think that ME's were common? I'm worried that I got it wrong. I loaded Axis assault a lot for June & July - see Battle Type 3 In fact I'm going to post this conversation and see if we can get some response from a Grog... IMPORTANT!! Henrik e-mailed me with this: “I think the experience system is "broken". After just 4 battles, - July 6th, I have a few Crack squads, almost everyone else is Veteran, and my 150mm InfGun has 916 experience! My PzIVE is 3 points from being Crack. And I'm not THAT good player... This is obviously too fast. They have never broke or panicked, maybe that's one reason, but still... They should be Regular at best.” Is this a common occurrence?? Sounds like a there’s some adjustments needed! Feedback please Guys. Henrik writes on: “And about the "favor for causing casualties": My last battle was an Allied Attack, 2000 pts, +25% to Allied, unknown enemy forces (turned out they got inf only), medium map, FLAT, OPEN, RURAL, . It was a slaughter, I tell you that They had 668 men ok, 893 casualties, 225 KIA, 10 captured, 10 mortars destroyed. I had 211 men ok, 10 casualties, 3 KIA, 1 vehicle destroyed. If they had brewed up a tank or two (it was VERY close in the end, ALL my units were out of ammo, and the russians poured into my lines), and I didn't get those mortars/prisoners, I would have got a negative favor. So there should definitly be some kind of favor for casualties Oh and in this battle my inf gun got 418 infantry casualties caused! It shouldn't become Crack non-the-less... Ok – had a couple of comments about casualty Favor already, so I’ll start on that tonight (after answering the board messages). Any feedback/comments on this would also be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biltong Posted November 19, 2002 Author Share Posted November 19, 2002 Originally posted by Screeny: And once again...a question.... ready for my second battle filled out the sheets according the rules (went pretty smooth this time) ready for generating the Real battle....well I know how to calculate the experience of my core troops but how to calculate tehh exp. of my Auxil. troops???? Guess I missed something gr ScreenySCREENY Sorry for leaving you hanging, but I was getting cross-eyed.. I see SuperSulo answered your Aux Experience question already… Guys, please feel free to jump in and help new guys – most of you know the rules by now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biltong Posted November 19, 2002 Author Share Posted November 19, 2002 Originally posted by Screeny: tjee and a new question, I start questioning my own intelligence............. Scrougned units: suposse I have 3 battles won and the dies gave me 20, 30, 50 pts for these troops. Now way you can by any inf for that so all you can buy in support troops but after a battle of ??? with 10<pts<90 all I end up with are small individual support units. Yes in the beginning a couple of MG/tankhunters and some smal PAK are welcome but some extra core platoons might be welcome as well. Is there any way to "save" this Scrounged units points untill you have enough to buy a extra platoon???Yep - Maybe the following change came in after you downloaded: "Note 6: You are not allowed to have more than 3 Scrounged Units. If you have 3 and get more points you can upgrade one of your Scrounged units using the total of the 2 units to buy something better. Use the Experience of the replaced unit." Just looked at it - not very clear - should read: "If you have 3 and get more points you can upgrade one of your Scrounged using the extra points to replace one of the units with something better." What do you think - clearer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biltong Posted November 19, 2002 Author Share Posted November 19, 2002 Originally posted by Schoerner: Biltong, thank you very much for this fine piece of work. I guess it would be quite easy to implement this mode for BTS into CM. Or making an additional small proggie ("Campaign Module"?) handling the rules automatically, generating the random-factors and reading all the results from a finished battle and importing the unit-stats. The campaign module could be even script-based and therefore allowing to edit each rule's parameters for letting the community make their individual campaigns. Additionally, if it would be possible to select from a dropdown list each unit-commander's name instead of letting the computer choose, this would give CM a whole new dimension (the best thing of the PG-series becomes available in CM). I hope BTS rethinks it's position. Your rules show, it would be quite simple to implement a campaign modus and the major labor and genius ideas are already done. All that is left is a little programmer's handwork and BTS's knowledge of how to import data from saved CM-games for further calculations. I'm wondering if Steve or Madmatt already took a look at your rule-system."I hope BTS rethinks it's position." From the quote it would seem that this has come up before... Don’t know what was discussed before or if BTS gave reasons why not… I would imagine it’s straightforward business decision: Extra work/salary/planning/integrating into existing system/delay cost etc vs. potential extra sales generated by this feature…. It might well be that the response here and what we all do with the rules could help to give them a better idea if it’s viable or not… Since I joined the old board 4? 5? months before the first CMBO demo I’ve noticed one thing: Steve/Matt & co are very aware! Their patches and response always offer more than was expected. BTW – Matt was one of the first to request a set of rules and updates Have faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biltong Posted November 19, 2002 Author Share Posted November 19, 2002 Originally posted by Elmo: Should the Dawn/Dusk modifier for Wind be -1 rather than +1? In upstate NY we usually have less wind at those times of day, not more. Not sure about the former Soviet Union though.Neither am I :confused: I based the modifier on my walking trips in the Karoo - a vast flat semi-desert are here in South Africa... the temperature drops/climbs fast at dusk and dawn causing light to strong breezes... I thought the flat steppe terrain might have the same effect... Anyone has a friend/family out that way? Been there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biltong Posted November 19, 2002 Author Share Posted November 19, 2002 Originally posted by Sardaukar: I'm using the rules to run platoon of Pz IVDs through campaign. Of course I had to modify rules a bit to get enough infantry, but seems to work. I use accumulated scrounging points to determine if I can upgrade a tank in some point of campaign. I also tone down the experience gain a lot after those tanks get regular. Also crew casualty for tank for me prevents any experience gain due to need to train replacement up to current standard. So far 2 battles, 1 major, 1 tactical victory. 1 Pz IVD out of 4 lost, all crew KIA/WIA (killed by inf.). Replacement Pz IVD green. Cheers, M.S.Great Sardaukar!! You're using the rules as I wanted them to work - adapt to your own taste! Would like to know more about the "toning down" of the experience points - there seem to be a problem there - points climbing too fast - how did you do it? And the upgrade story - tell us more... Biltong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biltong Posted November 19, 2002 Author Share Posted November 19, 2002 Originally posted by Apache: Biltong, Got the rules, thanks. Just a thought. Is there any value in preparing a Word FAQ type doc that can be posted at the sites with them? That may stop the posts eventually getting buried, along with the answers you have provided to people's questions.Yes, yes and Yes! You are hereby duly appointed Official Keeper of the Biltong Rules FAQ Seriously - If you have the time and inclination Apache it would be an enormous help to new players… Let me know if you want to give it a bash and I’ll arrange the posting on the sites… Biltong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shifty 101 Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 A question about the Aux Forces. For the first battle of the campaign you start with a core force of 569 (I think). After rolling for aux forces using a 10 sided die I obtained 225 points for infantry, 80 for vehicles, 50 for armor, and 600 for "Air" by rolling 9< on the original Arty column. Now by adding all of these up I have 1524. I checked the 2000 box labled "Force Size". This is where I get confused. When I go to make the battle where the AI selects my forces should I subtract my core company points? Also because I rolled and was only able to get Infantry under "Force Mix" does that meen all of my aux forces will be inf? About writing the aux forces in on the top of the sheet, what do I write in each box with an "x"? Do I write something like, "Hungarian Calvary Platoon"? I'm new to this whole CMBO-CMBB campaign thing but am desperately trying to figure out what seems to be one of the best ideas to come out of the CM series! Any help would be greatly appreciated. [ November 19, 2002, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Shifty 101 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSulo Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 I did some more thinking about the "experience problem"... When I first started playing by the rules ( ), I made a misstake when giving out experience. I didn't multiply the "experience gained for specific task" with the "number of times said task were completed". Meaning, no matter how many enemy casualties they caused, they still only got +2 exp for Enemy Casualty. Maybe this would actually be a better system? No more Inf Gun with 916 Experience after just 3 battles . Also, should there really be negative experience for say abandoning your mortar or fleeing the map? Do the troops get less experienced by being broken? Say you have a Crack 50mm mortar team (60 exp). During a battle they get the hell bombed out of them, their mortar gets knocked out, their position is being overrun by a red horde, they break and panic, and flee off the map, all 3 men survive. In the next battle, they will be Veterans (46 exp)? That seems odd to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biltong Posted November 20, 2002 Author Share Posted November 20, 2002 Mmmm guys - I'm going to disappear for the next 2 days... spent all of last night and tonight answering posts/mail and did'nt get anything done re the maps and now the experience problem... Will you guys please look after newbies with questions. As for the experience problem - please continue with the discussion - I see it has started - I'll pop in from time to time, but I won't comment - I want to see what the general feelings/ideas/comments etc are before I make an adjustment - more than likely before Fri so you can use it on the week-end. As for the maps - keep them coming - got some real beauts from Helmut in Munich - you know where they drink lots of wine.. Maybe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSulo Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Originally posted by Shifty 101: A question about the Aux Forces. I obtained 225 points for infantry, 80 for vehicles, 50 for armor, and 600 for "Air" by rolling 9< on the original Arty column. Now by adding all of these up I have 1524. I checked the 2000 box labled "Force Size". This is where I get confused. When I go to make the battle where the AI selects my forces should I subtract my core company points? No. You choose the units you want from the generated ones. But you can only choose 225 points infantry, 80 pts vehicle, and so on. I guess you could remove your Core Force Size from the Battle Size during the Auto QB phase, but by not doing that, you get more units to choose by Originally posted by Shifty 101: Also because I rolled and was only able to get Infantry under "Force Mix" does that meen all of my aux forces will be inf? No, it only means you get to choose your vehicles and armor at will from the "shopping list" when you generate the Real Battle! Just remember you only get to buy 50 pts of armor this time, and so on. Actually I think this is a bit of a flaw in the rules... I haven't said anything about it yet to Biltong, as I haven't thought it through yet, but here goes: As you said, I think you only should have infantry aux units if you rolled that up in the Force Mix. As it is now, you can get Infantry Only Force Mix, and still get 200 pts vehicle and 250 pts armor. Or get Armor Force Mix without a single vehicle or armor. So something is wrong, imho... Sorry to dilute the answers with that, lets get moving Originally posted by Shifty 101: About writing the aux forces in on the top of the sheet, what do I write in each box with an "x"? Do I write something like, "Hungarian Calvary Platoon"? Yes, that's the idea. When you later generate the Real Battle, you look at the boxes and buy the ones you want/can afford, with the rolled up limits in mind (225 pts inf/support, 80 pts vehicle and so on). Originally posted by Shifty 101: I'm new to this whole CMBO-CMBB campaign thing but am desperately trying to figure out what seems to be one of the best ideas to come out of the CM series! Any help would be greatly appreciated. I hope my answers helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shifty 101 Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Thanks for the quick response SuperSulo. I understand it a lot better now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSulo Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Has anyone else had a problem with the experience? Or am I so much better than all of you? If any grog (or simply someone who knows) reads this, how long time, in general, should it take for a Green unit to become Regular, with average combat exposion? Or a Regular to become a Veteran? If we knew that, maybe it would be possible to "count backwards" to see how much experience a unit should get on average per battle. My gut feeling is that one should become Regular in a pretty short time, maybe a month/6-7 battles? Regular to Veteran should take alot longer time, maybe a year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSulo Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Hmm I'm on a spamming spree tonight... I've been doing some experimenting with the scenario editor. How about this: Make a new battle, add your core force and scrounged units. Now you can edit your units so they have the correct experience.Roll up the map settings as usual. Look up the battle type/battle size/map size in a table, ie Axis Probe, 900 pts, Medium map: Width 960m, Height 720m, Setup zone Axis 240m, Setup zone Allied 340m. Use those settings and Generate a random map. Change the setup zones. Save battle as "_template" and exit. Start your Generate Real battle. Load in the saved map, keep units. Add your aux units. Crush your enemies. For the next battle, load up your _template in the scenario editor and change the units to their new experience level, change scrounged units, whatever you would normaly do. Generate a new Random Map Pros: </font>Get the correct experience (if bug is fixed). </font>You can name your units. </font>Change the ammo loadout on your tanks (if that's realistic). </font>It's possible to keep track of your HQ leadership ratings and allow them to get better at them. </font>Cons: </font>Victory flag. You have to set how many and place them your self. </font>It's not possible to load in a saved game in the scenario editor (why not?), so it's not possible to continue fightinh on the EXACT same map as the battle ended on, craters will be gone. </font>It would even be semi-possible to use the editor with the designed maps people are sending in to Biltong, but then you have to add your units again. I'll do some more thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aposotol Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Originally posted by SuperSulo: [QB]Has anyone else had a problem with the experience? Or am I so much better than all of you? After my first 3 battles (1 Major victory, 1 major defeat and 1 tactical defeat). Most units still green, the 3 AFV are regular thought. I dind't get many casulties in any of the battles <10% in the 3 of them. May be thats why?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Originally posted by Biltong: Great Sardaukar!! You're using the rules as I wanted them to work - adapt to your own taste! Would like to know more about the "toning down" of the experience points - there seem to be a problem there - points climbing too fast - how did you do it? And the upgrade story - tell us more... BiltongI reasoned that since it doesn't take long for troops to become "regular" from "green" in real combat (mostly after couple of fights, since "green" are fully trained troops, just with no combat experience). It does take long for them to be considered "veteran". Thus I took only 10%-20 % of achieved exp gain in battle after they are regular. I'm still experimenting what the ratio should be. For upgrades I use accumulated scrounging points (after replacing casualties of course). After consulting Excel availability tables for South (made by Chris, cannot remember his full name, but his website can be found from forum search) and if I have enough accumulated scrounging points after several battles to get new model and it's available, then I can get new tank. I play with 4 tank core, mine were PZ IVDs, I even randomized that by rolling d20 at start (conviniently there were 20 models to choose June 1941), and I play them as platoon but buy them as individuals so to enable individual replacements/upgrades/exp. For aux I usually double the points from die roll to get infantry, other aux is unmodified. I hope this gives some ideas to others too...and I have to say: Great job, Biltong ! Cheers, M.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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