Typical rank of CO of a kampfgruppe??

[Commissar]

Granted, the composition of a KG tended to vary since there was no standard organization and was more ad-hoc, but I was wondering if there tended to be a typical rank for COs of kampfgruppen. Did they tend to be above hauptmann/hauptsturmfuhrer in rank? Was it all over the places?

[WWB]

While I am not up on ranks, they appear to generally be subordinated to Regimental commanders, usually from the force which supplied the bulk of the infantry. Don't know offhand what that rank would be.

WWB

[Berlichtingen]

Sorry, but there is no correct answer for this. First, Kampfgruppes vary in size. it could be commanded by a battalion commander all the way up to a division commander. Second, the Germans tended to give command to ability rather than rank. Rank and billet are seperate entities in the German army. you are not automatically promoted to Oberstleutnant just because you have been given battalion command. Standartenfuhrer Otto Baum (Lt. Col.) was not promoted even though he commanded what was in essence a small Corps (2nd & 17th SS)

[Michael Dorosh]

In Italy in 1945, a German Regiment was surrendered by its commander to the US Army - he was a Leutnant (second lieutenant).

Very commonly, German officers of inferior grade were put in command of units. While a battalion was supposed to be led by an Oberstleutnant (lieutenant colonel) and a company by a Major or Hauptmann (captain), this was very often not the case.

An officer in charge of a company holding the prescribed rank was called Kompaniechef (Company Chief), if he lacked some qualification, or was only in temporary command, he was called Kompanieführer. Which leads me to wonder why Hitler insisted on being called der Führer publicly, and der Chef in private...

So with that knowledge in mind, a battle group had no "prescribed" rank for commanders, and as has been mentioned, would have fallen to perhaps the most senior officer of the component parts, or the CO of the largest component (not necessarily the same thing).

Even then, "seniority" in the German Army was very much different from seniority in other armies. Look at the scene in Zulu where Michael Caine loses command of a British garrison because another officer had been promoted a couple months ahead of him. That would never have happened in the German Army.

[JonS]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

... Look at the scene in Zulu where Michael Caine loses command of a British garrison because another officer had been promoted a couple months ahead of him...<hr></blockquote>

Just as well he did though - go the Sappers! You know you're all Gunners at heart

Ubique

JonS

[Brian]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JonS:

Just as well he did though - go the Sappers! You know you're all Gunners at heart

Ubique

JonS<hr></blockquote>

Nice scene. Would never have happened in real life (and it apparently didn't). Officers don't get down to arguing promotion dates. Its usually experience and senority of service (in toto) and perhaps most importantly, corps. They tend to know whose the better soldier as well. Only real asses make an arse of themselves over such matters.

[Brian]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Commissar:

Granted, the composition of a KG tended to vary since there was no standard organization and was more ad-hoc, but I was wondering if there tended to be a typical rank for COs of kampfgruppen. Did they tend to be above hauptmann/hauptsturmfuhrer in rank? Was it all over the places?<hr></blockquote>

As I'm presently reading "It Never Snows in September" - the German account of Market-Garden, it talks a great deal about the many ad-hoc KG which were created and operated in and around that operation. I'd suggest that while taking into account what the others have said in the thread, that the majority of KG commanders tended to be usually about Lt.Colonel (or SS equivalent) in rank. You might get lower ones or even higher ones but Lt.Colonels tended to be the ones who had the required amount of authority, training and experience to be able to get such ad-hoc formations to work (and were usually in command of the unit which formed the core of the KG).

[ParaBellum]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Brian:

As I'm presently reading "It Never Snows in September" - the German account of Market-Garden...<hr></blockquote>

Very interesting book, btw.

[Commissar]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Brian:

As I'm presently reading "It Never Snows in September" - the German account of Market-Garden, it talks a great deal about the many ad-hoc KG which were created and operated in and around that operation. I'd suggest that while taking into account what the others have said in the thread, that the majority of KG commanders tended to be usually about Lt.Colonel (or SS equivalent) in rank. You might get lower ones or even higher ones but Lt.Colonels tended to be the ones who had the required amount of authority, training and experience to be able to get such ad-hoc formations to work (and were usually in command of the unit which formed the core of the KG).<hr></blockquote>

This sounds like an interesting book. Is it written in German or English or both?

[IPA]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Commissar:

This sounds like an interesting book. Is it written in German or English or both?<hr></blockquote>

It Never Snows in September is a wonderful piece of work. Probably the only readily available detailed account of Market Garden From the German perspective. The Author Robert Kershaw was a British Paratrooper who served in the German Army on exchange for several years during the 80's. Hence his ability to access extensive German documentation on the operation.

Off the top of my head a few interesting ranks would be:

1/ Spindler, commander of the largest 9th SS Kg at Arnhem was the equivalent of a Lieutenant Colonel,but was actually the CO of the division's Artillery regiment.

2/ More well known, would be Captain Grabner, commander of the ill fated charge of the 9SS recon battalion over Arnhem Bridge (Total Battalion strength was about 40 AFVs).

3/ A few others KG Gropp, Moeller(Sp?) were also commanded by Captains and Majors, if I'm not wrong.

For any one looking to put together a KG for an Arnhem scenario, look no further. To compliment this, another recent publication "German Armoured units at Arnhem" (or something similar to that), provides detailed armour types and quantities present at the battle.

Cheers

Peter

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: IPA ]

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: IPA ]</p>

[Commissar]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by IPA:

It Never Snows in September is a wonderful piece of work. Probably the only readily available detailed account of Market Garden From the German perspective. The Author Robert Kershaw was a British Paratrooper who served in the German Army on exchange for several years during the 80's. Hence his ability access to extensive German documentation on the operation.

Off the top of my head a few interesting ranks would be:

1/ Spindler, commander of the largest 9th SS Kg at Arnhem was the equivalent of a Lieutenant Colonel,but was actually the CO of the division's Artillery regiment.

2/ More well known, would be Captain Grabner, commander of the ill fated charge of the 9SS recon battalion over Arnhem Bridge (Total Battalion strength was about 40 AFVs).

3/ A few others KG Gropp, Moeller(Sp?) were also commanded by Captains and Majors, if I'm not wrong.

For any one looking to put together a KG for an Arnhem scenario, look no further. To compliment this, another recent publication "German Armoured units at Arnhem" (or something similar to that), provides detailed armour types and quantities present at the battle.

Cheers

Peter

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: IPA ]<hr></blockquote>

Actually, one more question: How does this book correspond with other Western works like Ryan's <u>A Bridge Too Far</u>? Are the "facts" in both tend to back up each other or are there major disagreements?

[IPA]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Commissar:

Actually, one more question: How does this book correspond with other Western works like Ryan's <u>A Bridge Too Far</u>? Are the "facts" in both tend to back up each other or are there major disagreements?<hr></blockquote>

I wrote a post similar to this some months ago.

I haven't read ABTF for many years now, but as superb a piece of literature as it is, it has been surpassed in terms of accuracy by many authorities since its first publication. It would generally tie back with INSIS, but Ryan's summary of events is not really detailed enough for it to disagree.

IMHO the authority and most detailed account of the Arnhem battle is Martin Middlebrook's "Arnhem 1944 the Airborne Battle". He provides a concise description of events and movements of the 1st Airborne Division, hour by hour, often down to platoon level. His account collaborates well with Kershaw's which he mentions in his acknowledgments. Read this in conjunction with John Waddy's "Tour of Arnhem battlefields" (which includes a 1944 1:25000 scale map of Arnhem/Oosterbeek).

Peter

[Brian]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Commissar:

Actually, one more question: How does this book correspond with other Western works like Ryan's <u>A Bridge Too Far</u>? Are the "facts" in both tend to back up each other or are there major disagreements?<hr></blockquote>

No, the facts are generally in agreement. I'm just wading through about half a dozen different books on Arnhem, each dealing with a different aspect or unit which took part, including perhaps the most interesting gem of the lot:

van Roekel, Chris, The Torn Horizon: The Airborne Chaplains at Arnhem, Jan and Wendela ter Hosrt and Chris van Roekel, Arnhem, 1998.

It never Snows in September, provides a great deal more detail of the German units' accounts (obviously) than Ryan's book. The major events concur, the difference is that the perspective of the narrative is very different. It Never Snows in September, has excellent maps, diagrams and photos, many never before published about Arnhem.

I'd highly recommend it. I purchased mine online, along with the other books from the Airborne Forces Museum, in the UK.

[Charlie Rock]

Kershaw also wrote a book on D-Day, which has some of the best maps on operations vic. Omaha beach out there. He consistently writes some great stuff.

I think in the Normandy retreat KG commanders were toward the low end: more MAJ's and CPT's, with attrition to consider. That's a SWAG.