What about streams in CMBB

[pritzl]

There is another thread discussing people making a mod for rivers to appear smaller and that got me thinking about streams in CMBB. Would it be possible to (or are they already) in the game. They could be done using the exact same technique as for trenches, the only difference would be a defensive penalty rather than bonus for units in the middle of the stream and, assuming it's done with the same basic coding, would allow the streams to wind their way through any type of terrain thus allowing for streams with extensive or minimal cover along their banks. So, is this doable?

[MikeyD]

I think the opinion on streams for the original CBBO was that they were tactically insignificant (crossable by everybody) and therefore not strictly necessary. You can 'simulate' streams by a wooded cleft between two hills leading down to the river. No blue for water of course but you've got the wooded banks at least.

I'm trying to remember what was said about streams in CMBO... They're out? BTS keeps adding new cool features but I don't believe streams are among 'em.

[Bruno Weiss]

Sounds like programmer thinking.

I figure streams would add just as much to the ambiance as does the grass or brush or the horizon. Their pretty, fish swim in them, and you can take a bath in them and wash off the vehicles.

Actually, to me their absence in the CMBO terrain is more obvious than had they been there in the first place. I don't know about CMBB, I certainly hope there are streams, and fords, and even some chevy's. Anything but that standard US Dodge 2 1/2 ton truck. Oh, wait how'd that get in here.

[ March 11, 2002, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Schrullenhaft]

To my knowledge streams still don't exist in CMBB. As mentioned previously, they were somewhat tactically insignificant. I believe that they'll be put in when the tile size is reduced to 10m x 10m (or 5m x 5m) in the engine rewrite (tile size was mentioned in the past as a reason why streams weren't put in originally).

Basically it's assumed that you could use a marsh tile and some subtle elevation changes to simulate a stream.

[ March 11, 2002, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]

[MikeyD]

CMBB is going to have vastly more types of terrain tiles to play with. I suppose they could theoretically do a "road" pattern with a squiggly blue line running down the center of a rough tile and call it a stream.

Still, I haven't heard that they'e planning to do it.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Schrullenhaft:

As mentioned previously, they were somewhat tactically insignificant.

I've read otherwise. Supposedly most of the streams in Western Europe were apt to have steep or muddy banks that made them impassible to vehicles. There were frequently thickets of trees and brush along the banks as well. In short, even troops on foot would have some difficulty navigating them even though the water itself would during most of the year have been neither deep nor fast flowing.

Basically it's assumed that you could use a marsh tile and some subtle elevation changes to simulate a stream.

This is what I was thinking as well. Lower the whole thing a level or two and put woods along the banks.

Michael

[Madmatt]

No streams, too insignificant to add them and the way we use doodads wouldn't work.

We do have a new SOFT GROUND tile that depicts mushier squish type ground that stays wet and gooey which could be moded to have little streams in it if you want.

We also have added Vehicle Fords now.

Madmatt

[109 Gustav]

I've found that the best way to make streams is to use a mix of marsh and water tiles, surrounded by scattered trees. Use fords whenever the river is more than three tiles long.

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

We also have added Vehicle Fords now.

Can all vehicle types cross?

[Mord]

A while back Steve fielded questions from us and whether streams were included happened to be my question.

Vehicle Fords YEHAA!

Everyday we get a few more tidbits. I can't wait for this game!

Mord

[Mr. Johnson--]

nice, tanks for the vehical fords!!!

Now can we have the game?

[Bruno Weiss]

No streams, too insignificant to add them...

So is grass? Streams could provide as much tactical differential as a marsh, rough, knolls, crests, and other types of terrain that could also be termed insignificant. I don't understand the rationale here.

We also have added Vehicle Fords now.

Fords for marshes, but no streams?!? How many marshes came with fords. More to the point, how would one (in Russia mind you), go about architecturally building a ford in a "squish type ground that stays wet and gooey"? And, why would you want to. If the marsh was that slim or narrow, then why would not the travelers who were the main designers of most of the Russian roads, just go around the marsh rather than through it. Nudder good question, how many horse carts would it take to cross a marsh to the point where it finally became a ford, and again why would they?

Streams are as significant as other non-essential types of terrain. On a flattened landscape they can provide small depressions where infantry, maybe even small vehicles could dip below the LOS. In addition, some streams that are insignificant during the dry seasons, become very significant during the rainey seasons. Streams also provide a water source for trees and brush, and thus cause tree lines and brush growth to proliferate where otherwise farmers might cut them down, which inturn provide certain amounts of cover for small combat teams. I'm not sure where the idea came forth that streams and rivers all come on one size fits all, but the map indicates a wide variety of stream and rivers sizes, any one of which can be significant.

Yes, streams would be good.

[ March 12, 2002, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Madmatt]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

That may be but your still not getting them.

The vehicle fords I spoke of are for rivers, not marshes.

The various effects your are wanting with streams (besides the graphics) I think you will find are now modeled with the new "Soft Ground" tile.

Madmatt

[Bruno Weiss]

That may be but your still not getting them.

There may be a lot of things we are not getting in CMBB, or that we didn't get in CM. I'm not making the product so it isn't my option to include things or not include things, it is my option to buy it. What I am asking is why streams are not included? The statement that streams are insignificant does not hold water. Beg pardon on the obvious. Therefore, aside from something being in the water cooler at BTS, I'm wondering what the real reason is that I must have missed, in what I'm sure was a discussion or debate that took place previously. Like maybe, it is too hard for Charles to program given the time frame, or the CPU utilization, or we can't figure out a way to code it into the auto-map generator, etc. Then, at least, I would know that there is infact a rational reason beyond the illogical statement that streams are not tactically significant, or the then vague appearance that no one in the place has figured out what tactical variations of geography a stream might make on a 3D map.

[ March 12, 2002, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Panzer Leader]

A river is only one tile wide, so how wide would a stream be? Duh. It is obvious why they are not included.

I suppose they could add a whole new slew of tiles like they have for roads in all its twists and turns, but why?

As for the farmers.... weird.

[Fieldmarshall]

If its bloody streams you want then download this marsh mod:

From Toms TCMHQ..

[Madmatt]

In order for a terrain tile to be included into the game (which is a lengthy process itself) it must be unique enough to warrant its inclussion AND it must have enough tactical worth as a means of either cover or concealment or effect movement in a suffeceint way AND as a terrain tile it must cover an area roughly 20x20 meters which is the size of a tile and lastly it must not be something that can currently be modeled with an existing tile.

Streams, may be environmentally vital to the health of a landscape but from a game design point of view they do not. If the stream was too broad or deep to be crossed the exisiting river tile could be used. If a smaller stream is intended which is still for some reason uncrossable by vehicles than marsh could be used.

A stream that is easy traversable by men and machines is not a significant enough terrain feature to get its own tile, partially do to its small size and partially because it does not in itself affect the landscape around it enough.

Two tiles that we added in CMBB to give a little more freedom to the map designer are vehicle fords and soft ground. With vehicle fords you can model shallow or slow running streams if you want or you can use Soft Ground to model small streams and the surronding terrain which would be waterlogged suffeciently to be a hazard to vehicles or it can simulate terrain below the water table that will natually be more moist and water logged than regular open terrain but not to the level of Marshes.

It's not a coding issue, we just don't see the added value of a dedicated stream tile and as such have not added it.

Madmatt

[ March 12, 2002, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Madmatt ]

[Bruno Weiss]

There are other terrain objects on the map which have some type of impact or other which are not a full tile wide. So, no that example does not make it obvious why they are not included. (duh), heehoho. The why would they redo road type tiles as a stream is at least partially answered above as I pointed out, contrary to apparent popular myth in here, a stream does have an impact of some type, just like other objects have an impact. As for farmers, I guess you've never noticed that farmers do not tend to cut down the trees along streams that cross their fields (why would they, they don't plow the stream), or that streams tend to promote tree and brush growth along their banks.

[Fieldmarshall]

There is no point in arguing. You are positively, not getting a stream young man! Now just go back to your room! No dinner for you..

[xerxes]

Vehicle fords are a great addition. Will infantry be able to cross at a vehicle ford? I would have to assume yes.

[Bruno Weiss]

Kinda feels like that Fieldmarshall. It isn't just the width of the stream that makes a geographical difference, it is the depression of the banks that can make a difference to the LOS. Depending ofcourse, on the type of stream. Streams have banks, some low lying, some with steep embankments, most promote trees and brush to grow along the banks. All of which provide concealment opportunities.

Good health... Thought you was gone somewhere anyway.

I can understand what your alluding to with the creation of a new partial tile, which I suppose means it has to be worked into the AI, and map generator, and okay fine maybe that brings up problems for the tile sizing. That then splains it, but to just keep saying it is all about how wide the thing is I don't get. Shrubs are not wide, but sure affect things as do walls, both of which can be crossed by vehicles, or some vehicles but maybe even more importantly provide concealment to infantry and slow vehicles down. Now, maybe it is a real problem to model 3D depressions on a roadtile wide scale to represent stream bank depressions. If so, then that would splain that. But no, streams like walls and shrubs would have a definate impact.

So fine, we ain't getting em. But its on account of ya don't wanna model em, not on account of there ain't no good reason. Just that you figure the reason isn't good enough. And on that score, me figures more finking is needed.

[ March 12, 2002, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[pritzl]

I don't understand all of this talk about making new tiles, etc. For the same reason that it's a bit of a cludge to take up 20 meter of terrain for what amounts sometimes to cover nothing more than a few meters in width but that tactically can mean the difference between getting shot to pieces or not. BTS has already stated that trenches for the infantry will be in CMBB. Obviously these trenches are not 20 meters wide, and will be able to be placed by map designers similar to the way walls are dealt with now. Why not include streams in a similar manner?, or why bother including trenches, it could be argued using the same logic that, since they are so small, they are also insignificant. And yes, I know BTS has already clearly stated that they will NOT be included, that's fine. It was merely a suggestion.

[Panzer Leader]

You are mistaken, trenches will be placed similar to the wair BARBED WIRE is placed, i.e. a unit, not a land formation.

That would be MIGHTY awkward to be buying streams in the purchase screen and then routing them where you want them to flow before a battle!

[Madmatt]

You guys are making a small incorrect assumption that man made map objects (like fences, walls) and placeable objects (like trenches) are all the same as a full terrain tile and use the same methods of including them. They are not so comparing inclussion of one or the other is like apples and oranges.

When I said that streams are too insignificant to model I meant it in the context of the existing criteria for making a new dedicated tile which is bound to our current 20x20 meter system and wheter or not the sum total of the geographical/tactical features can be modeled with the existing tiles.

If in the future we move to a smaller tile system (maybe 5x5 meters) than more dedicated terrain irregularities like roadside ditches and even streams will become much easier to justify adding.

Also you are making rather broad generalizations about all streams. Not every stream will have deep banks or provide enough elevation change to provide cover. Not all streams would have large amounts of foliage or brush.

There are many types of terrain that we didn't include, streams are just another one, but as I have repeatedly tried to show, what you seem to want with a stream tile IS possible now with the existing tiles available to you.

Madmatt

[Bruno Weiss]

He isn't talking about buying streams PL, he just didn't know that trenches were purchased items.

what you seem to want with a stream tile IS possible now with the existing tiles available to you.

Okay okay, I'll go along with that. If ya'd stop saying their insignificant we could avoid these little misunderstandings. Remember, Grogs are from Mars, MBT'ers are from Venus.

So it's peace and harmony ya want aye? Silence you worthless rabble! I miss the old Matt.

[ March 12, 2002, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]