The swastika in Finland - for those who don't know

[Juha Ahoniemi]

Since there is not even Finnish swastikas in the CDV version I'm afraid that someone may have a wrong idea of why it was used in Finland. The following text is from a Tank Museum of Parola here in Finland and I thought it coud serve as one of educational means of this board :

The swastika in Finland

The swastika has been in use as ornament on ancient Finnish wood artefacts. Also in Fenno-Ugric textile handicraft you will find swastikas up to this day.

as national recognition mark to Finnish Military the swastika was adopted in 1918, when the Swedish flight pioneer, Count Eric von Rosen donated the first airplane to the Finnish Army. The swastika was a part of the von Rosen coat-of-arms. Hence, the swastika was the official mark of the Finnish Air Force until 1945, when the present blue-white cockade was adopted.

The armoured cars that were embargoed by the Finnish white troops during the independence War 1918 were painted with a swastika. Also the armoured trains carried this symbol before WWII and and on to 1945.

The Finnish tanks did not carry a national emblem at all during the years 1919-1940. During the period between the Winter War and what we call "the Continuation War" the tanks were painted with a broad blue-white stripe on the turret. Then, the swastika - in its Finnish version - was adopted and in use from 1941 to 1945 when the blue-white cockade was prescribed as for the Air Force. The Swastika is used in many Finnish medals, as e.g. in the Mannerheim Cross and the Liberty Cross. It is still in use. The very first Finnish medal with a swastika seems to have been the memorial medal of the battle of the city of Kuopio, which took place the 8th February 1918. The Order of the Liberation Cross for distinguished service was constituted the 4th March 1918. Initially, only the order ribbons were bestowed, the first actual Liberation Crosses were given in 1919.

The ceremonial chain of the State President of Finland was made up of swastikas. President Urho Kekkonen changed that, too, so that the chain today consists of fir twigs.

In the tank Museum those tanks that were in use in the years 1941-1945 carry the Finnish swastika.

-Juha

[Mark Gallear]

Yea we know - you got version from paranoid German company - think maybe they could be prosecuted for corrupting young with swastikas - any bodies.

Get scenario icon - from thread on scenario icons that will correct one part of your problem.

As web site with files now gone - you are going to have to ask a nice American to email you the Finnish armour files - they were listed on an earler thread - maybe some site will host them again soon?

[Abbott]

There is also an Indian tribe originally from the southern California USA area that used the swastika ornamentally a few hundred years before the German military. I believe its use has suffered some bad press since then.

Thank you for the information on Finnish use.

[Nippy]

There is also an Indian tribe originally from the southern California USA area that used the swastika ornamentally a few hundred years before the German military.

The Swastika was in use long before that. Here is some info from About.com:

The Oldest Known Symbol

The swastika is an ancient symbol. Dating back 3,000 years, the swastika predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh . Approximately 3,000 years ago (1000 BCE), the swastika was commonly used; swastikas have been found on many artifacts such as pottery and coins dating from ancient Troy.

During the following thousand years, the image of the swastika could be found in many cultures around the world, including in China, Japan, India, and southern Europe.

By the Middle Ages, the swastika was a well known, if not commonly used, symbol but was called by many different names:

China - wan

England - fylfot

Germany - Hakenkreuz

Greece - tetraskelion and gammadion

India - swastika

Though it is not known for exactly how long, Native Americans also had long used the symbol of the swastika.

There is a great debate as to what the swastika means now. For 3,000 years, the swastika meant life and good luck. But because of the Nazis, it has also taken on a meaning of death and hate.

These conflicting meanings are causing problems in today's society. For Buddhists and Hindus, the swastika is a very religious symbol that is commonly used. Chirag Badlani shares a story about one time when he went to make some photocopies of some Hindu Gods for his temple. While standing in line to pay for the photocopies, some people behind him in line noticed that one of the pictures had a swastika. They called him a Nazi.

Unfortunately, the Nazis were so effective at their use of the swastika emblem, that many do not even know any other meaning for the swastika. Can there be two completely opposite meanings for one symbol?

Clockwise Swastika

Counter-Clockwise Sauvastika

In ancient times, the direction of the swastika was interchangeable as can be seen on an ancient Chinese silk drawing.

Some cultures in the past had differentiated between the clockwise swastika and the counter-clockwise sauvastika. In these cultures the swastika symbolized health and life while the sauvastika took on a mystical meaning of bad-luck or misfortune.

But since the Nazis use of the swastika, some people are trying to differentiate the two meanings of the swastika by varying its direction - trying to make the clockwise, Nazi version of the swastika mean hate and death while the counter-clockwise version would hold the ancient meaning of the symbol, life and good-luck.

Then again, after doing some reseach on what happened to my ancestors in the Ukraine, I don't look at the Hammer and Sickle in a very flattering light either...

[ October 22, 2002, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Nippy ]

[Chupacabra]

AFAIK, while the swastika is an ancient symbol, the Nazis were the first group to rotate the symbol 45 degrees...

It may be mere semantics (not to mention pretentious on my part, but hey ), but I've taken to referring to the Nazi version as the Hakenkreuz to distinguish between that and the earlier symbols.

[manchildstein (ii)]

this site is interesting:

http://www.swastika.com

[mchlstrt]

I have a technical (Modding) interest in the Finnish swastika. From what I've seen it is always 90degrees, is also clockwise as per the Hakenkruez, is sometimes blue, is 'highlighted' w/ white on bottom & back, & I've seen a reference to the 'short arm' Swastika being regulation.

Also, while I'm at it, could the Blue & White bands have shown up on any BB Fin Tanks. And anything else along these lines anyone cares to share.

Thanks

strt

[patolino]

Originally posted by Juha Ahoniemi:

Swedish flight pioneer, Count Eric von Rosen

A funny historical detail is that von Rosen happened to be the brother-in-law of one Hermann Göring (since 1922).

"Hermann Göring verkehrte in der Familie des schwedischen Grafen Eric von Rosen; seine erste, 1932 verstorbene Frau war Carin Gräfin von Fock, die Schwester von Erics "

Göring-bio

another one

[wodasini88]

manchildstein thanks for that link, that was one of the most interesting and informative sights I've been to and gave me a lot of insite into the swastika. It's a shame the average person sees it only for the evil hitler gave it

[CMplayer]

The word, svastika, is from Sanskrit, btw. It is from su+asti which means well-being. So a svastika is a thing possessing or granting well being.

It is used widely in India today as a symbol of good luck, and is in use as a religious symbol among the Jains. Jainism is probably one of the world's most non violent religions.

[Schoerner]

The origin of the swastica lies in the origin of the germanic nations in northern europe.

It is the symbol of sun and in the cold nordic climate the sun became the symbol of life.

From there it was spread all over the world with the movements of the germanic tribes.

From the Ägyptians to the indian Aryians, the Greeks, the Romans - the founders of the old cultures came from northern Europe, had white skin, blonde hair and/or blue eyes.

During the centuries they got mixed up with the surrounding nations, the blood which created the old culture disappeared, and with the blood the cultures died, but until today elements of nordic blood still can be found in India, Ägypt or Greece.

No matter what is told nowadays about the swastica and why the Nazis used it.

The Nazis used the Swastica as a symbol of remembering about the roots of the germans.

It was used as a sign of an ideology respecting the laws of nature, where human being is seen as a product and a part of nature, where nature and it's laws are holy - just like all the old germanic tribes, called "barbarians" and heaths by the nature-hostile christians, did.

[ October 23, 2002, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Schoerner ]

[Lawyer]

In "Delivered From Evil", the excellent one-book history of WWII, Robert Lecke talks about Hitler's obsession from his youth with religious symbols in church before he rejected traditional religion. The swastica is the main one. It is a shame how an ancient German religious and cultural symbol can be perverted to mean evil. However, Hitler and the Nazi's changed a lot of things about the way Germans are perceived since WWII. Changing those emblems and related perceptions back will take a long time.

Here in the U.S., people are still fighting over the meaning and current use of one Confederate battle flag that wasn't even an official flag of the Confederacy in the Civil War. But it is still a powerful symbol, and people will fight over old symbols as a means to make modern political points.

[ October 23, 2002, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Lawyer ]

[busboy]

It all has to do with the interpretation of a symbol. When I see a confederate battle flag, I see the courage of the common Southern soldier that fought to save his home from what he saw as Northern agression. Most people see it and think "racist!" And, well, most of the folks who openly fly it ARE racists who use it to show their racism, that doesn't help the image any.

The interpretation is true for any symbol. I wonder why we see the Swastica as such a "bad" symbol but not the Hammer and Sickle. They both were the symbols of evil.

To add a bit to Swastica history, there was a shield discovered from aprox 200 A.D. that had swasticas on it. The shield was a Roman scutum. In addition, there are several mosaics from later Roman history that show soldiers with swasticas on their tunics.

Sadly, whenever a Roman reenactor chooses to depict history from these later Roman eras as accurately as he can, he is met with the raised eyeborws of the ignorant.

People should educate themselves on what they hate before they hate it.

[Neutral Party]

Obviously the origins of the swastika are very ancient. Another remarkable aspect of this symbol is its ubiquity through diverse cultures from all around the world. I once heard an interesting discussion on the subject by the late lamented Carl Sagan. He was speculating as to whether some mass shared experience could have given rise to this symbol. It would have to be something that was very dramatic to have had such an impact that cultures were using it as a talisman for millenia and would also have had to be visible all round the world.

What he suggested could have been responsible was a close encounter with a comet. If the cometary nucleus was rotating in a particular orientation with respect to the Earth and was emitting gas/vapor jets as a consequence of solar irradiation it would have the appearance of an irregular swastika. To primitive humans such a sign in the heavens would have been somewhat memorable.

Joe

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

The origin of the swastica lies in the origin of the germanic nations in northern europe.

That is a long discounted theory. In almost all certainty the symbol came to europe from asia.

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Schoerner:

The origin of the swastica lies in the origin of the germanic nations in northern europe.

That is a long discounted theory. In almost all certainty the symbol came to europe from asia.</font>

[Engel]

Originally posted by busboy:

I wonder why we see the Swastica as such a "bad" symbol but not the Hammer and Sickle. They both were the symbols of evil.

The Hammer and Sickle won, while the Swastika lost. Winners decide.

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Schoerner:

The origin of the swastica lies in the origin of the germanic nations in northern europe.

That is a long discounted theory. In almost all certainty the symbol came to europe from asia.</font>

[Chupacabra]

Given Schoerner's email address, why am I not surprised at the Teutonic Mythology routine...

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by Chupacabra:

Given Schoerner's email address, why am I not surprised at the Teutonic Mythology routine...

Polemic and even a wrong polemic:

could it be you have a lack of knowledge about the small but important differences of germanic, german, celtic, germanic nations, german tribes,...?

[ October 24, 2002, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Schoerner ]

[CMplayer]

I'm not going to get into this any deeper. Hi Mom!

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Engel:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by busboy:

I wonder why we see the Swastica as such a "bad" symbol but not the Hammer and Sickle. They both were the symbols of evil.

The Hammer and Sickle won, while the Swastika lost. Winners decide.</font>

[Juha Ahoniemi]

Uhh, it's kind of funny to see how a thread meant to enlighten the origin of the use of swastika in Finland turns into world championship event of mud-slinging

We will never know who draw the first swastika, and it is irrelevant IMO. My purpose was to eliminate possible ideas of wide-spread nazism in finland during WWII, which I think are possible if You don't know that the swastika was used here long before the nazis adopted it.

-Juha

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Juha Ahoniemi:

My purpose was to eliminate possible ideas of wide-spread nazism in finland during WWII, which I think are possible if You don't know that the swastika was used here long before the nazis adopted it.

That is not only possible I'm sure it happens all the time when people are first confronted with Finnish participation in WW2.

For example I was once watching a history program on ww2 and they showed some brief images of Finnish troops crossing the Russo-Finnish border that included some tanks. And one of my friends turned to me and said "I didn't even know that the Finns were nazis..." luckily I was there to give some context because the program just switched to the next topic

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by Juha Ahoniemi:

We will never know who draw the first swastika, and it is irrelevant IMO.

Respectfully i have to disagree, Juha.

To understand cultures (and also the own), it's necessary to know about the meaning of symbols they use.

And as i mentioned above, it's common to all germanic nations, that they had a positive look at nature and it's laws.

And the sign, that human being is part of nature and not like much later (till today) the christians (or communists) believed, nature is something bad and evil and should be slaved, or changed due to it's "cruel" laws and mankind is the crown of god's creation, is the swastica.

It remembered our old germanic predecessors, that all good comes from the sun, from nature.

During the devastation of 2000 years life-hostile christianity, the connection to the roots got destroyed (very well done by the christians, by occupying and misusing of the old germanic symbols like Julbaum (Yuletree?) as their christmas tree and filling the symbols with their ideas and also celebrating the big christian clebrations when the germanic nations were celebrating nature - Christmas (Yule), Easter; who knows nowadays, that the christmas-tree is the old germanic Yuletree or that "Santa Claus" is germanic and not christian or what the sense of Halloween was and not it's perverted copy in christian societies?).

Discover your roots.