stalingrd Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 Hello all, When I was visiting St.Petersburg I went on the Aurora for a get together of Soviet WWII vetrans. While talking to them & about the Aurora itself (in between Vodka toasts of course!)they were mentioning that it had been landlocked & used for anti-aircraft duty. Unfortunatly I had an overload of information(+vodka) & can't remember the specifics. I believe the Aurora lent support against the Finns.. I'm already thinking about the scenarios i'm going to create around Leningrad. I know there were Stuka attacks around Krondstadt so the Soviet Fleet was around. The question to the esteemed knowledgable CM crowd: Did Naval guns participate around Leningrad? & Did the Aurora get into some action against the Finns? Mister Stalingrd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 I know naval guns were definitely used against the Germans southwest of Leningrad. I have no idea if any Soviet naval guns were used against the Finns though (cruisers and battleships). I believe that there were shore batteries that may have been used against the Finns at one point (around Viipuri/Vyborg ?) and probably used against the Soviets later in the Continuation War. This web page mentions 130mm armed gunboats (and the batteries at Kronstadt) operating in the Gulf of Finland supporting ground troops during the later stages of the Continuation War (mostly for some amphibious Soviet assaults against Viipuri). [ August 28, 2002, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 I believe "The Volga Rises in Europe" by Curzio Malaparte makes reference to the use of naval guns from shore batteries and stranded vessels against the Finns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patolino Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 Originally posted by Lars: I believe "The Volga Rises in Europe" by Curzio Malaparte makes reference to the use of naval guns from shore batteries and stranded vessels against the Finns.Hmm. While Malaparte is certainly entertaining (I have "Kaputt" and "La Pelle" in my shelf) I don't know how accurate his "reportage" is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 I can find out for you, since I was just there as well with some Russian friends. I do believe the Aurora guns were literally removed and deployed along the perimeter defense as support. Not sure if it was Aurora's guns, but definitely one of the ships' guns were removed and placed on land for use. Sounds crazy, but I'm pretty certain this was done. I will definitely check on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 Originally posted by patolino: Hmm. While Malaparte is certainly entertaining (I have "Kaputt" and "La Pelle" in my shelf) I don't know how accurate his "reportage" is...It was good enough for Goebbels to expel him from Russia. I wouldn't use him as a primary source though, not enough groggy details. I just pointed it out as a eyewitness account that easily came to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stalingrd Posted August 29, 2002 Author Share Posted August 29, 2002 My less influenced by vodka friend who was on the cruiser with me remembered them saying that the big gun was taken off the ship and deployed as a defensive land battery. The rest was used to provide flak.. Hmm I'm not sure why I keep putting the Finns into the equation. Perhaps I'm envisioning a Finns attack the Aurora's land based gun scenario - it would be nice if it was historical as opposed to fictional of course! mister stalingrd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 stalingrd, I'm actually certain I saw a map at a military museum in Leningrad, showing the deployments of the guns around the defensive zone for the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma of Finland Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Can't remember for sure, but I think Finns never attacked Leningrad itself. If I remember correctly there was actually a strict order not to attack perimeters of Leningrad. Although there was plenty of battles around it (in the small piece of land between lake Ladoga and the Gulf of Finland. If some people are wondering why on earth would Russians take guns off from ships and not just sail around them wrecking horror and havock, think of this: the Gulf of Finland was successfully blocked by the Finns on the north side and Germans on the south side (Estonia). There simply was no access to the Baltic Sea from Leningrad. Although some submarines tried to make their way out. The Gulf of Finland was also very heavily mined. /kuma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tero Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Originally posted by stalingrd: Hmm I'm not sure why I keep putting the Finns into the equation. To draw the bears in with the honey ? Perhaps I'm envisioning a Finns attack the Aurora's land based gun scenario - it would be nice if it was historical as opposed to fictional of course! Purely fictional unless they managed to place the guns near the old border (where the Finnish troops stopped) before the Finnish army reached it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaD JoKe Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Finns used a lot of anti-submarine nets and varying sortments of seamines in the area(plus ofcourse German mines), so the escape from the harbour or possibility for a break-in was non-existent. Leningrad was never attacked by Finns. Like Kuma mentioned, there were strict orders not to make attacks to Leningrad area. Germans (Goebbels?)tried to force Finns in negotiations to participate on the blockage of Leningrad by attacking it from the north. Mannerheim did not agree to this because he thought that it might be a "bridge too far" so to speak. Finns had reached the defensive positions they wanted from the Continuation war and did not see any reason why they should attack Lenigrad and possibly harm the also possible negotiations with Russia. They were hoping that they could make separate peace with Russia because of the German pressure in the south. I remember a story I wred from that area, where a veteran told that there were some big guns involved with a distinctive sound on them. They were used as artillery against finnish formations and villages at that area and quite effectively actually. Unfortunately I cant be of more help, because the description was in a book made on the principal of " from veterans to younger generations" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 According to "Soviet Warships of WW2" (Meister, MacDonald & Janes, 1977) the guns from the Aurora were dismounted and used on the armoured train Baltiyets. I have no idea what/where/who the train fought or served. [ August 29, 2002, 02:47 AM: Message edited by: Mike ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Yes, one thing I remember of the map of Soviet ship gun placements was that they were all south of Leningrad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Okay, my friend says that in general these naval guns were placed along the southern line. There were all sorts of naval guns that were removed from ships then placed in forts, like Kronshtadt or Krasnaya Gorka. Also, a few were placed on armored trains too. Calibers ranged from 5" to 12". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stalingrd Posted August 29, 2002 Author Share Posted August 29, 2002 Wow great information: about the mines in the Baltic.. I was wondering why the Prinz Eugene & other german boats were not attacked when supporting Pilau ect. I know some subs got through. But why did'nt Soviet planes attack? Did they just not have planes that could take on ships? or how about the Royal Navy for that matter.. perhaps there was a zone of control like the Elbe where the RN could'nt go into the Baltic.. As for the Finns, yes it seems they did'nt want to throw all thier chips with the Germans. They did have to give that land they won back, but at least Helsinki wasnt occupied at the end! Aurora: Wouldnt it be great to see the maps of the placements? I did tour some of the old defensive lines around Leningrad & saw some of the bunkers. There is a nice monument to Soviet Soldiers at the closest point the Germans got to in town. You can still see some of the anti-tank ditches in the park there. They came pretty darn close to a big tank factory. I think it was about 5 blocks from the monument.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaD JoKe Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Originally posted by stalingrd: [QB]But why did'nt Soviet planes attack? Did they just not have planes that could take on ships? As for the Finns, yes it seems they did'nt want to throw all thier chips with the Germans. They did have to give that land they won back, but at least Helsinki wasnt occupied at the end! [QB]Finland was not occupied. Period. Gained, previously finnish territory was lost and some more + huge warcompensations for Russia. Actually, Finland was the only nation who waged war against Russia and was not occupied... My opinion on russian airplanes is not admiring: they did not hit rats ass. This is revealed when compared in statistical sense (number of sorties/dropped bombs/destroyed military targets/casualities in fighting troops and civilians). I dont have any numbers to back them up right now, but I think that some another smartass will dig them up anyhow. In our series "Fun but useless facts to know": civilian population in big cities used to light fires on lake or sea ice to fake city lights and when the russian formations arrived with poorly equipped planes (navigation equipment, maps etc) and trained crews (night operations, lacking navigation training) arrived, they dropped their deadly cargo harmlesly to the sea. No reason to freak out anyone, if someone knows better just post it all here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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