Time for a change from WWII, CM3 Cold War?

[hellfish]

Hark ye merry gentlemen, and listen to me:

I cannot imagine a more exciting game than CM:Modern Battles. Or '65-85. Either. I have longed for the ability to watch my M-48A5 tanks loom over a ridge and fire into the T-62s in the valley below. I have ached to command the Israeli 77th Armored Brigade in the Golan Heights, their Centurion/Ben Gurion tanks firing into the T-62 in the valley below.

However - I'd like to see Combat Mission: Med Theater first.

Why? Because that is where BFC can perfect the terrain and models they need in the desert. And because that is the most logical place to expand our beloved game into. And, because it is really, really interesting. I think a lot of people forget how interesting the Med theater was, and I know for a fact that the D-Day/Northwest Europe campaign overshadows all other American campaigns in WW2.

Once the Med game is done, BFC will have no problem importing desert (and, indeed, all other) terrains into a Modern CM that lets us fight all over the world, saving them some more time and energy to more thoroughly research twenty years of OOBs and TO&Es from around the world.

But, in all franknes, I can't imagine why the Early War '39-40 is so interesting. I look at the possibilities, and only a commando raid on Eban Emael looks interesting. I really can't imagine what an Early War CM would offer that isn't already covered (or will be in CM:Med).

[First Mate Detrius]

I'm with Hans and you other WWII fanatics.

I'd prefer a much larger CM Whole war than any modern/cold war scenario.

As an old Steel Panthers fan i was delighted on th II game, but III Modern Battles took all the fun out of the game

Especially if you tried playing Merkavas or MA1/2 og Leopard2 tanks...you we're unbeatable in any realistic scenarios

No gimme som desert fun! Preferably a game were I can play from 39-45 on all fronts...why not include the pasific? All the models and troops. Hell I'll pay double for the game if they could introduce some interesting Campaigns!

How about taking the command of Guerdians forces from the beginning to the bitter end? Or Rommel??

Goddamn...THAT is old fashioned fun!!

And introducing some Steel Panther gameplay were you can upgrade/repair vehicles dependant on supply and how many casualties you've taken??

Goddamn I'm getting exited here!! Now THAT would be fun!!!!!!!!!!!

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

[snips]

But, in all franknes, I can't imagine why the Early War '39-40 is so interesting. I look at the possibilities, and only a commando raid on Eban Emael looks interesting. I really can't imagine what an Early War CM would offer that isn't already covered (or will be in CM:Med).

The Arras counter-attack, the river-crossing at Sedan, the last stand of the Searchlights in "The Flames of Calais", and the rearguard at Dunkirk aren't "interesting"?

All the best,

John.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Yup, the peak of my wargaming days were from 1976 to 1979, until now, and it was a case of about 2/3 time spent on WWII games, and 1/3 on Cold War games. Historically, this was also the peak of the global wargame frenzy; companies like SPI were throwing games out the door every week. Some of them were very good too. Anyway… this change from WWII to Cold War is what I miss. We would spend two or three months on a WWII phase, and then a couple of months playing Cold War games. It would be great to be able to do the same again. I do feel like a change from WWII.

The problem with a “current” setting for a CM type wargame is that, happily from a real world point of view, there are no big industrial powers squaring off against each other. For now anyway. For CM type games you need industrial powers in the same “sort of ball park” equipped and ready to have a go at each other. During the Cold War this was the case. The armies really did exist. They were in place. Hence, for me any time between 1970 and 1989 would be great.

Sadly, we cannot all get what we want. BFC are a small team and the output of games is thus very limited. The good news is that one of the features of the new engine will be that it can rapidly be adapted to new games. I believe the target is to be able to produce a new game every six months, as opposed to every two years. Great news for guys like us who are fans of BFC’s games.

It will be fun whatever they come up with, but being human, I clearly hope my favourite of the Cold War pushed its way to the front. Ultimately, they will do whatever takes their collective imaginations most … time will tell.

All the best,

Kip.

PS. John, you have some very "niche market" scenario likes and dislikes for game settings . I am a simple chap, the unimaginative, big item settings in terms of the "most common" settings for wargames are my favourites .

[Bimmer]

I, for one, would love to see a Cold War game that allows simulation of the Western Europe conflict that never came as well as the various Middle East wars and others. The former has been overlooked until very recently, with the release of Tiller's Fulda Gap. The whole range of spillover wars that never came would be fantastic - Berlin Blockade, Korea, Cuban Missile Crisis, 1973 Arab-Israeli, War Scare of 1983, etc. I would be more than willing to kill off anyone BTS doesn't like in order to get this game into the production schedule.

[CMplayer]

North Africa would make a lot of sense, in order to prepare the engine for Cold War scenarios. In particular, BFC can improve the way infantry behaves when it breaks, and deal with aerial obscurants like smoke, sand and airborne dust, which are oversimplified in CMBB, but which are of huge tactical importance in the desert. Also, night battles don't really work in CMBO or CMBB. There's no illumination, units which fire can't be area targetted if out of LOS range, even though their muzzle flashes would reveal them etc. The desert would be a good place to iron these things out.

About infantry, the 'run towards friendly edge' behavior fails as soon as you have a turned flank, not to mention in a defensive position which is surrounded. Any 'bastion' defence type of position will lead to problems, even starting as early as Korea which often saw infantry companies deployed with a 360 degree perimeter. This could even be a problem in North Africa. I doubt infantry in trenches in a 'box' would just up and start running across flat desert towards some imagined 'friendly edge' when it could mean 400 miles without water. They have to learn how to do things like 'retreat away from the enemy but stay in our trench' regardless of the direction. (analyze the direction of threats)

The desert terrain could be very flat, but it could also have very subtle undulations which are definitely useful. Gridded terrain can make this a really rewarding gaming experience. On this terrain infantry will have to start to undertand better what is 'cover'. Open defiladed ground will have to be a viable destination for panicky troops trying to break LOS, in a desert without much other cover.

Personally I think BFC will have some huge challenges ahead of them if they are going to get the desert up and running, but it will be worth it. After that the Cold War would be great.

[ December 11, 2002, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: CMplayer ]

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by kipanderson:

[snips]PS. John, you have some very "niche market" scenario likes and dislikes for game settings

Eh?

I was deliberately mentioning the famous actions that would appeal to a mass audience. Some of the ones on the list I gave have films about them, for goodness' sake, and some of the others have paintings by Terence Cuneo.

"Niche Market" would be actions like Gallabat, Keren, the Madagascar landings (Tetrarchs, Monkey-Harries and the King's African Rifles, hurrah!), Habbaniyah Airfield and the Dodecanese Islands.

For non-WW2 stuff we've already had the Gran Chaco War mentioned, and I'd like to have a bash at the battle of the Jarama Valley from the Spanish Civil War ("Viva la Quince Brigada, rumbala rumbala rumbala"), and some skirmishes from the Rif War and in Waziristan against the followers of the Fakir of Ipi. And I'm sure, what with the popularity of SAS books and all, that everybody would like to be able to re-fight the battle of Mirbat from the Dhofar campaign.

You wait 'til someone turns up wanting something really weird...

All the best,

John.

[Claus B]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

[snips]

But, in all franknes, I can't imagine why the Early War '39-40 is so interesting. I look at the possibilities, and only a commando raid on Eban Emael looks interesting. I really can't imagine what an Early War CM would offer that isn't already covered (or will be in CM:Med).

The Arras counter-attack, the river-crossing at Sedan, the last stand of the Searchlights in "The Flames of Calais", and the rearguard at Dunkirk aren't "interesting"?

All the best,

John.</font>

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Claus B:

I'll take that over the Cold War any day!

Quite. Spending 30 turn giving your opponent nasty looks doesn't really appeal to me .

[Lumbergh]

What about scenarios?

How are we supposed to play historical scenarios in a WWIII CM?

I suppose people could pour over Reforger (or whatever those big NATO exercises were called) AARs and try to make battles, but something tells me it would not be quite the same as the "this is REAL" feeling of CMBB. Even fictional scenarios in CMBB have a sense of gravitas, simply because you are simulating real life. IMHO.

[Runyan99]

Originally posted by Ken Talley:

I find North Africa fascinating history. But I have reservations about how much fun it would be in CM. The terrain reminds me too much of steppe country. Flat and little or no cover. CM needs a variety of terrain to be fun.

I also find North Africa very interesting, but I have the same reservations you do. Thusfar with CMBB, I have not enjoyed the scenarios on the wide open steppe, so I wonder if I would like scenarios in the wide open desert any better. That said, I would be more than willing to give it a try for the next CM game.

If CM were to leave WW2, I would vote for an American Civil War game. I'd love to play the first day at Gettysburg on a 3D CM battlefield.

My non-WW2 wish list is roughly as follows:

1) American Civil War

2) Arab-Israeli Wars

3) Napoleonic Wars

[flamingknives]

Now I can see helicopters in the mental picture for Combat Mission:Cold War. It would be too good. I don't see why they should be too difficult to do. CM as it stands is defined by 3D co-ordinates, AFAIK. Having some units that can move in the third dimension independantly of the landscape shouldn't be too hard. Should it?

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Runyan99:

Thusfar with CMBB, I have not enjoyed the scenarios on the wide open steppe, so I wonder if I would like scenarios in the wide open desert any better.

I'd just like to repeat that this can be helped by using gridded terrain. It then becomes easier to see the slight undulations which are so vital on the steppes.

The other thing that can help is for the CM game engine to be improved. It doesn't really stand up to long range, open ground fighting, especially when infantry is involved. I'm sure they will improve this with the engine rewrite.

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Having some units that can move in the third dimension independantly of the landscape shouldn't be too hard. Should it?

It would be a completely new set of TacAi issues, for one thing. You'd have to do a lengthy study of Helo tactics and usage, and then invent of coding solutions for all the issues. Just think of all the behaviors that are special to tanks and other vehicles as opposed to infantry.This would need to be done all over again for helos. It's not just a matter of moving a model in the 3'rd dimension.

Also, Helos have such a high rate of movement that confining them to a game board would seem a bit forced. It would probably be more in the spirit of CM to treat helicopters like the air support already in CMBB. Something that comes, operates on its own and leaves.

[CavalryMan]

One of the features that played a very important part of Desert Warfare was the use of dust as a means of generating cover. For this to be effective I suspect that we would have to wait for the engine re write.

[Lou2000]

Well i'll be happy with another WW2 setting, especially with an engine re-write and the improvements in the AI that Steve has recently been talking about in his postings.

There have been quite a few threads wishing for a cold war / WW3 CM and lots of views on how it would or wouldnt work ... (im in the wouldnt work well camp) ....

However i'd rather see CM take a big step back in time (historically speaking). I'd love to take the armies of Sparta, Athens and Persia to war on a CM battlefield. There isnt a game yet that can do justice to this era ..... But a CM Ancient Armies .... Ahhhhhhh now thats worth thinking about (IMHO :cool: )

Lou2000