What is the good choice of targets for artillery ?

[ferdinand]

Hello all,

I'm a newbie, still learning the tricks of the game and I'd like to have a few tactical advises about what to target with artillery

(and yes I did a quick search).

For instance, I tend to use artillery to take out AT and INF guns, but I'm wondering whether I'm not wasting its potential.

Let's say you have a well-placed FO that can see at the same time :

1 - an open-top AFV

2 - a few dug-in squads

3 - an AT/INF gun

4 - houses near a VL

5 - another FO

What would you engage with that FO ?

I'd say 3-2-4 in that order, and wouldn't bother with 1 and 5. What do you think ?

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by ferdinand:

1 - an open-top AFV

2 - a few dug-in squads

3 - an AT/INF gun

4 - houses near a VL

5 - another FO

What would you engage with that FO ?

FO for what?

What I'd use:

1. On map mortars or ATGs.

2. Mortars, direct HE or maybe some heavier arty.

3. On map mortars, MGs or direct fire HE.

4. Heavy arty or direct fire large calibre HE.

5. Sharpshooter, MGs, direct fire HE.

Cheers

Olle

[Croda]

ferdinand -

Keep in mind that just as there is different calibre artillery, each calibre serves a slightly different purpose.

The larger the caliber of the artillery the more destructive it is, and typically the slower the Rate of Fire and lower the available rounds.

75 and 81mm mortars are fast and have a good number of rounds, but they will not really destroy the target. They work best at suppressing an enemy. If an enemy is suppressed, they cannot fire at you. So if you have a few dug in squads in a place that you need to be, hit them with the 81, you should be able to keep them suppressed while you move in. They won't be very beat-up from the barrage, but you'll be able to hurt their morale and get your infantry close enough to hit them hard.

Other good uses for 81mm are smoke barrages to cover your advance (due to the large ammo load and quick response time); hitting moving formations to disrupt the timing of an advance; hitting open-topped AFVs in a group (I wouldn't advise wasting the arty on a single AFV).

Anything over 81mm is meant to destroy, and the large the calibre, the larger the destruction. Some of the upper-ranged sizes are prohibitively expensive, and come with too few rounds to allow you to spread the wealth. 105 and 155 are great, especially the American VT variants which use a proximity fuse to cause the shells to explode ~20ft above the ground, showering the enemy with shrapnel and eating infantry alive.

The only item that is different is rockets. They are cheap, fire fast, have good punch, but have no accuracy. Your rockets will be spread all over the board, so be prepared for that.

Use onboard 60mm, 81mm, 2in, 3in mortars for single target suppression (MG team, AT/INF gun, HT, etc.) or for small area smoke missions (smoke the MG before advancing on it).

Remember to use artillery on groups. 1 Sharpshooter or halfsquad in the trees isn't worthy of your FO's attention. Try to save the arty for groups no smaller than a platoon. If 2-3 turns of arty can destroy a platoon and maybe it's support elements, then you've gone a long way toward helping yourself.

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Woot! - Maximus2k

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[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

2 then 3. None of the others is worth trying to hit with arty.

Arty is an infantry killer, and you want to use it on multiple targets. It will also do guns, but smart players seperate their guns from other units enough so that a barrage on the gun doesn't hit other people much. Sometimes there will be another target there.

Just spending 1/2 a module to suppress a single gun usually isn't worth it. If it KOs an 88 and saves a tank, then yeah sure, it is worth it. But half a 105 module on an infantry gun or light FLAK, is usually not a winning bargain.

As for buildings, arty is not very effective against troops in buildings, unless it is very high caliber shells (150mm an up). And you better know somebody is there. Just shooting at empty buildings, you *can* afford with tanks and other such direct-fire HE, but *cannot* afford with the indirect fire weapons.

You use them up too fast, and too many of the shells fall between the buildings and do next to nothing. The tanks are still effective with a smaller HE load left, and they will hit the buildings with every shot, so they are OK for anti-building "prep fire". But not the off-map guns, that is a waste.

The FO, hit with a machinegun or something. It is overkill to go after a 2-man team with a whole battery of guns. If it is the only thing you have that can see him, and he is calling down heavier fire (like your 81s with a short mission, would stop his 105s or 155s from firing), then sure, that could make sense. But an HMG is liable to do the same thing faster, if you have one handy.

[X-00]

I'll echo Jason on this one. 2 then 3. 105 up is above all an infantry killer.

Also don't use it too soon. It is very easy to consume your rounds early. Most times you'll wish you had at least one more fire mission left during the end game phase.

[Guest wwb_99]

I find 81mm mortars very effective on open-topped AFVs such as HTs and US Tank Destroyers. You just need to be sure that he is not moving them, and time the barrage to hit near the beginning of a turn, since he will move out as soon as it hits.

WWB

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[ferdinand]

Thanks for the answers, guys.

So, if anything under a platoon is not worthy of the heavy artillery treatment, is it reasonable to buy some (heavy, that is)?

Judging from your answers it seems one would be better off picking up more 81 mm mortars : more flexible and less waste.

On the contrary, heavy arty seems a risky strategy : either you find a big target and hit hard, or you don't and waste it.

[Cybeq]

You're right about the bigger arty. It is a gamble. I find that during the painfully long 2 min. wait for it to fall the enemy's positions have shifted and my 155's will land in an empty field. I tend to reserve the bigger stuff for assaults on fixed positions. But I get more milage from mortars. Here's a trick though. If you get an 81mm FO and a 155mm FO you can call in the mortars to pin down infantry then kill them with 155's. I'm a big believer in mass artillery strikes. But back to your original question: I'd strike the dug-in infantry first. Since their dug in they won't be going anywhere soon so call in the big stuff. Then I'd smoke the AT/INF guns and close-assault with infantry. I wish an HE arty srike would kick up dust like it did in Steel Panthers. You wouldn't have to use smoke so much.

[Immolator]

I'm new to this game, but I had a Priest knock down some buildings the enemy was trying to enter and at the same time brought down some 81mm fire. With the buildings gone it made a real mess of the infantry. I have also seen vehicles move too quickly for the arty to affect them (or move out even after a full turn of fire.) So it seems to me smaller calibre artillery is better used vs. infantry or slow moving guns.

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Cybeq:

I wish an HE arty strike would kick up dust like it did in Steel Panthers. You wouldn't have to use smoke so much.

I heartily agree. I think it would be interesting (and useful) if it gave the same amount of coverage as, say, the smoke shell from a British 2-inch mortar. Not very much, wouldn't last a long time, but doggone it, when a shell hits the ground and explodes, there is a lot of dirt thrown into the air. When it (and the dust) come down, it should obscure vision. Heck, if nothing else, the troops on the ground are going to be either ducking and covering when the dirt falls or they will be cleaning the grit out of their eyes. In either event, there should be some *temporary* benefit to the attacker.

Just my $0.02 worth.

MrSpkr

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[Radar]

All of the above except, keep readjusting the fire mission to make it fall in the last half of the turn to conserve rounds. Try to keep an aim point targetted and recancel and reset the mission order to hold off a FFE yet be within a turn or so of falling. Cancel and reset (adjust target point) at the end of every turn there is a FFE in progress.

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Radar:

All of the above except, keep readjusting the fire mission to make it fall in the last half of the turn to conserve rounds. Try to keep an aim point targetted and recancel and reset the mission order to hold off a FFE yet be within a turn or so of falling. Cancel and reset (adjust target point) at the end of every turn there is a FFE in progress. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do this. As I see it, it is more important to bring down fire fast and furious on a given position than to drag it out. Your troops should be in position to assault an area prior to bringing in the artillery, then should race in as soon as the barrage begins. If you let up for 30 seconds each turn, then you run a severe risk of allowing the enemy enough of a breather to run away and clear the barrage area.

I would rather use a few extra rounds to ensure the enemy remains pinned in the general area than give them an opportunity to clear the zone.

MrSpkr

[Radar]

Ok, that is a point, arty is a support weapon. I was generalizing and I should have pointed that out. Use this for large(150mm+) calibers more than for the smaller (105mm and less). Also the amount of fire depends on your target size and type.

Now, if the target gets up and moves then you'll have another chance to target using the rounds you've held aside, right? I've seen players do what you've said and ripped through a valuable asset, with no apreciable results. Consider it a suggestion only.

[Warmaker]

For light calibre arty, i.e.60-81mm mortars/75mm, I generally tend to use them to disrupt an infantry attack or suppress a known defensive infantry/ATG position. Don't expect alot in terms of casualties, that's for the big guns to do. The good thing with light arty is their quick response, esp. on map mortars. Also, a open topped AFVs have much to fear.

For medium stuff, i.e. 105mm, I still use them on "soft targets" (infantry/ATGs/trucks) as I would light arty but I can expect more casualties/damage. If you're lucky you can immobilize tanks but don't hold your breath.

The big guns, i.e. 150/155mm/large rockets, have a slower response (esp. German arty) but can be quite destructive, especially on infantry. An overkill way to take out HT's/SPWs while terrorizing infantry, esp. if they're not dug in or in good cover. MAYBE you can destroy a tank too, but more likely to immobilize it. A note about rockets: make sure you're nowhere near the impact.

My preferred target ranking for my arty? 1=highest priority.

1.infantry, esp. dug in infantry

2.ATGs/HMGs/on map arty(except mortars)

3.Open topped AFVs

Generally I don't target med.-hvy. armor unless infantry are riding on top. Best I hope for if I do so is immobilization or to have them button up.

Oh, just to bring it up in case anyone didn't know. On the defense, TRP's (Target Reference Points) are EXTREMELY valuable. Put them on likely avenues of approach or predicted concentration points and you can inflict massive damage. Any units that do not move from their initial positions gain a significant bonus to accuracy. Great for ATGs/HMGs/"Pillbox Tanks" but the biggest bonus is for your FOs which can GREATLY reduce the time required. Example: With a large calibre German rocket FO(forgot size) it would have took 3 precious minutes for the attack to arrive. On a TRP it was reduced to about 39 seconds. Time is more important than money. You can always make money for money lost, but once time is lost you can't get it back.

[Wilhammer]

Depends on the density of the target and the goal of the fire mission.

Obviously you want highest density vs a non-moving target.

The best way to slow down the enemy is with obstacles, like road blocks and barbed wire backed up with MGs, your MRL or minefields.

If you can, try to channel the enemy with these kind of weapons into a nest of resitance to establish a killing zone.

Mines can be the best way to do this. Once a minefield is spotted, you CANNOT voluntarily move into it. Backed up with well positioned MGs or guns, and you have formed a killing zone that you can then drop arty on.

I have done this to others, and had a very recent experience having done to me. A band of AT and AP mines stopped my road bound army (it was in the snow) and a well timed 155 barrage killed 2 Panthers, 1 Tiger, 4 HTs and countless men, absolutely stopping that attack cold in that sector. The only thing keeping me gong is that it was ahuge battle and I was able to continue the offensive despite these heavy losses.

On the attack, it is more complicated, but the principles of supporting combat arms still applies. This is when tanks supporting infantry is paramount as their long range fire can isolate an area, thus helping to prevent the run away from the spotting round thing. HMGs and MMGs are used for this blocking fire as well.

Also, rmeber that if you keep your adjustments at under 100 meters in any direction, spotted or unspotted, you can walk your fire to maximum effect.

For the long delay stuff, I plot it on turn one to the likely spot I will use it, and that helps cut down on the TOT when you actually get to the area.

Tricks to do to slow down the delivery include slight shifting of the target point and moving the spotter.

The suggestion to combine mortat OBA and gun OBA is a good one. The only concenr is I really like to save my 81mm for smoke missions, beacuse the use of smoke in offensive operations is crucial.

[Skorpion]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wilhammer:

Mines can be the best way to do this. Once a minefield is spotted, you CANNOT voluntarily move into it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, you CAN force your infantry to ignore minefields. Of course, if through casualties and the like they become pinned or worse, then they will usually leg it in the wrong direction, but sometimes it's worth taking a few casualties to surprise the opposition.

[Compassion]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrSpkr:

[QB]

Why do this. As I see it, it is more important to bring down fire fast and furious on a given position than to drag it out. Your troops should be in position to assault an area prior to bringing in the artillery, then should race in as soon as the barrage begins. If you let up for 30 seconds each turn, then you run a severe risk of allowing the enemy enough of a breather to run away and clear the barrage area.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dunno. I like to shift a small amount if I have a good number of troopies in the open. They all hit thedeck when arty starts falling, yea? SO exposure goes down. If you let up for 20 seconds, they will pop their heads up and then my shifted arty starts falling again. Seems to up the body count a bit.. NOT for all battles, for sure, but for big ones where I might have a good target but not have troops to deal with them immediately.

I'm in a monster now... 10,000 on defense against about 16,000 attacking... but on a huge map.. i've been making an art of shuttleing around the map with a fleet of half tracks responding to threats from here or there... sometimes it take 6 or 7 minutes to move a supported platoon from one their fox holes to the battle ground... walking the arty around seems to make their job easier and saves shells.

[aussie]

i have read most of the replies and would like to also add my two cents worth. firstly let me start by saying i am a former australian army corporaland though therefore not trained in tactics above platoon level, i do have an inkling of them.

81 mm mortars are chaper yes and quicker in response-- let us remeber that a lot of the battles are small unit tactics and involve mainly platoons or companys operating from a platoon based enviroment.... the 81 mm mortar is known as the infantries artillery and therefore would be normally all you could expect to have at your disposal organically.

at a pre mission breifing, if you were taking part in say a; fighting patrol, recon, advance to contact, rearguard, or defence, you would be advised there and then if you had artillery support... other then your 81's......... however remember, that thousands of companys and evn bttns would be receiving similiar breifings and all being told if they had arty sup.it is not yours, it is operated at a minimum in the battalion level, and wen a request is nade it would be prioritised, and remeber there would be, in a ww2 campaign literally thousands of of requests coming in for such support,, who needs it most, and where it can be most effective is up to the powers that be.

obviously in a planning stage for an attack or defence where it was advised by or known to intelligence that there would be targets that required or were suitablre for arty fire, they would be earmarked to your op

one cannot print here what would prob be said to an fo whio called in .. mmg in woods , 2 rounds smoke,... i doubt that he'd get the "fire for effect order.

its horses for courses, squad or section commanders dont normally give the order"bayonets--fix" when aircraft are armour is spotted.

[Gremlin]

You may find my introductory guides, including one on artillery, useful: http://www.combat-missions.net/bootcamp/bootcamp.htm

[JMcGuire]

Considering the "shared resource" nature of artillery, doesn't that suggest that the firing delay should actually be random?

[Alex heritage]

it stands to reason use heavier artillery to destroy big houses with men in, wooden pillboxes and sometimes well dug in infantry genrally big targets that dont move much. use off the map mortars to quickly bring fire down on advancing infantry (or retreatin)and quickly bring in smoke

p.s i'm a memeber of the english royal artillery PLEASE stop calling it arty it just sounds to stupid, if u must shorten it call it "Fire"

[Radar]

How about 'Artty'?

[Stacheldraht]

"Arty" may sound silly, but I believe it's been common US military slang for some time.

[Warmaker]

Okay, for our British comrades, I will TRY to stop using "arty." It's gonna be a hard habit to break though

[Stacheldraht]

Hey, it's our language now x 2