For your consideration...

[Le Tondu]

My friend and I have been wargaming for so long that we know each other's tendencies and tricks so much that we strive in QBs to get as equal a force as possible so we can be sure it was our pure tactical genius that helped us win. We don't just want to win because we had better equipment or greater numbers.

I've been wargaming for 28+ years and he is an active duty officer and a tanker. SO, my work is always cut out for me when we go against each other with CMBB. Lots of times we like all armored forces and we recently had this great idea of having the same tanks face each other. One side will have captured tanks that face the same type on the other side. Great idea huh?

Well, we had the same quality of crews and numbers, but we've run into a snag. My German captured T-34 Model 1941s hand my opponent his butt every time. He has even had the same results when he played the axis against the AI.

My buddy said that the game favored the Germans and I said it was the top secret armored paint that the Germans used. I felt pretty good and I didn't take his complaints too seriously until I.....

......I did some tests.

I had a ten tank vs. ten tank showdown. Inside ten different alleys lined with pine trees (that didn't allow one tank to see into the next alley) was one German captured T-34 Model 1941 against a Soviet T-34 Model 1941. Yeah, it was nasty. Each test rarely lasted more than one turn at the shorter ranges.

Each range (350 meters, 500 meters, & 1000 meters) had ten tests for a total of 30 tests (each one with ten tanks vs. ten tanks) being made. Essentially the test had 100 tanks of the same type, crew quality, AND ammo. (I even went and edited each tank so they had only AP ammo for the T-34 Model 1941.)

The results surprised and humbled me. I wasn't as good as I might have believed.

350 meters:

Out of 100 T-34s that the Soviets were able to field, 84 were destroyed. Out of 100 captured T-34's that the Germans fielded, only 17 were destroyed.

500 meters:

Out of 100 T-34s that the Soviets were able to field, 80 were destroyed. Out of 100 German captured T-34s, only 22 were destroyed.

1000 meters:

Out of 100 Soviet T-34s, 74 were destroyed. Out of 100 German captured T-34s, only 27 were destroyed.

Overall:

Out of 300 T-34s for each side, the Soviets lost 238 T-34s and the Germans lost only 66 captured T-34s. On top of all of this, for each tank, the Germans were able to get the first shot off almost every time! (Both sides were Regulars without any bonuses.)

Question:

Shouldn't the numbers be reversed? I mean when you consider familiarity with the equipment and a maintenance system already in place for the T-34, the Soviets should have done MUCH better, IMHO.

I have to agree with my friend. Something doesn't seem to be right. Are there national penalties given to the Soviets? I can't even think of why there would be any. Same tanks, same crew quality, same ammo, same everything ought to give something more like a 50-50 result. Not an 80-20 result. Somefink ought to get fixed.

Any ideas guys? What am I missing here?

I don't want to win a CMBB battle because of some unfair advantage. Now, real life is different. For sure, I want my friend to win hands down with LOTS of unfair advantages should he have to go into harms way, but in wargaming I want to win because of me and only me. (My decisions and only my decisions on the CM battlefield.) Winning any other way, in my opinion is delusion --and meaningless.

Lastly, does anyone have any tips to help me achieve this with CMBB? Are there any suggestions for achieving parity?

Thanks for your consideration.

[Michael Dorosh]

Optics?

[rune]

also the german version of ammo as opposed to the Russian, also them gamey germans put cupolas on the tanks for better vision.

Rune

[ November 08, 2002, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: rune ]

[Ellros]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Optics?

Just what I was thinking.

[Cameroon]

Has anyone checked the optics? Captured panthers, for instance, have their standard (i.e. good) optics. I don't know if the Germans upgraded their captured T-34s or not. I wouldn't have thought so, but maybe they did.

Perhaps the Soviets are suffering from the increased command delay for the time period? In 1941, Soviet forces have a command delay equivalent to one experience level lower than their actual experience (e.g. Regular forces have command delays of Greens).

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Le Tondu:

We don't just want to win because we had better equipment or greater numbers.

Why not? Works for me!

Michael

[Moon]

Actually, this could have something to do with crew experience. Up until, eh, mid-42 I think, the Soviet experience rating is actually one lower than what is displayed. In other words, a Soviet regular crew is essentially the same as a German "green" crew. Since you've been using 41 models, I'm guessing that this is what you might be seeing...

So the Germans, with better crews, are probably able to get their first shot in before the Russians, therefore the skewed results?

Martin

[Le Tondu]

Originally posted by Moon:

Actually, this could have something to do with crew experience. Up until, eh, mid-42 I think, the Soviet experience rating is actually one lower than what is displayed. In other words, a Soviet regular crew is essentially the same as a German "green" crew. Since you've been using 41 models, I'm guessing that this is what you might be seeing...

So the Germans, with better crews, are probably able to get their first shot in before the Russians, therefore the skewed results?

Martin

To all,

Thanks for your thoughts so far. I really appreciate it.

Optics weren't even metioned when you look at the Detailed Unit Information window for the captured T-34. The only difference is that the Germans give the coaxial MG more ammo than the Soviets. Other than that there is no difference!

Optics??? At 350 meters on a total flat surface at midday with no wind, dry ground conditions, & no obstructions?

How does optics help a crew to almost always fire first at such a short range as 50 meters? I just did another test for the range of 50 meters and the results are even more impressive.

The Soviets lost 89 out of 100 tanks while the Germans with their captured T-34s lost only 20. The Germans still were able to fire first. Optics shouldn't even come into play at 50 meters.

2. Crew quality? IMO, any crew in a captured tank will not be anywhere as good as a crew in a tank that is familiar with it when all else is made equal. Does anyone think that Germany would but their best tanks crews in a captured tank in 1941? Paint job and markings or not, it still would have the silouhette of an enemy tank and when you consider any poor visibility conditions, it is a terribly risky job indeed. How good a quality would you get from Regulars for a job like this??

I have made 400 tests now and the Soviets lost 327 out of 400 tanks whille the Germans lost only 86 out of 400. The disparity is striking.

My work is lacking, I admit. I will now test later situations with say captured Panthers later in the war. Optics will be the same and heck, the Soviets ought to have better quality crews for them.

Stay tuned......

[Le Tondu]

More information

June 1944, using Panther VA (early war) tanks.

Only AP ammo is used. Besides captured Panthers have thinner armor (for some reason), the penetration values for the captured Panther ammo is not as good as the German's.

STILL....

....things turned out better. Out of 400 German Panther VAs (early war), 214 were destroyed. Out of 400 Soviet captured Panther VAs (early war), 200 were destroyed. Tests were done at 50, 250, 500, & 1000 meters.

I guess we'll have to pick June 1944 for gaming. Too bad that we'll have to pick those darn HUGE maps just to get enough tanks. We'll have to make them samll.

[86smopuim]

There is a significant difference in penetration values of the captured and soviets T-34s guns.

Create a scenario, add T-34s to both sides. open the map, preview, and check out the stats.

Even up thru 44, there are differences, favoring germans slightly.

[Khane]

I did some tests of my own...

13 small QBs , all on the same map : 10 German Cracks captured T-34 1943 (Late ) against 10 Soviets Crack T-34 1943 (Late). Terrain : totally flat open ground (no buildings , no trees , no hills, nothing... ) distance 500 meters between the opponents.

11 among the 13 the QBs lasted 1 turn and One QB lasted 1 turn + a few seconds of the second turn. The results :

2 battles : 10 Soviets knocked out tanks versus 0 German knocked out tanks

2 battles : 10 Soviets knocked out tanks versus 1 German knocked out tanks

3 battles : 10 Soviets knocked out tanks versus 2 German knocked out tanks

3 battles : 10 Soviets knocked out tanks versus 3 German knocked out tanks

1 battles : 10 Soviets knocked out tanks versus 4 German knocked out tanks

1 battle : 10 Soviets knocked out tanks versus 6 German knocked out tanks

1 battle : 10 Soviets knocked out tanks versus 7 German knocked out tanks

In these 13 battles the Soviets lost 130 tanks and the Germans 34 tanks

Then I did 8 other QBs with this time 10 German Regulars captured T-34 1943 (Late ) against 10 Soviet Crack T-34 1943 (Late). This time the same terrain but with a distance of 150 meters between the opponents. The results :

In these 8 QBs the Germans Regulars lost 45 tanks and the Soviets Cracks 77 . Only in 1 battle among the 8 did the Soviets win but even then they lost 7 among their 10 tanks. ( in one of the battles the German regulars even managed to win by knocking out 10 Soviet Cracks and losing only 1 tank )

It seems that the Germans have an important advantage over the Soviets in spite that these are the same tanks and the same ammo.

I am not a grog and do not know on how many captured T-34 did the Germans install the superior German optic and if CMBB does simulates the captured Germans T-34 with German optics ( no record of that in the units details of the German captured T-34 tanks ) but even so of what importance is better optic at a distance of 500 meters and 150 meters ? What are the reasons of this German very clear advantage ?

Khane

[Vanir Ausf B]

I don't think crew quality would be a factor. Unless the manual is wrong, Soviets are only equal to German units of one level lower in terms of command delay (before 1944). In all other aspects they are the same at the same experience level.

[Khane]

Originally posted by 86smopuim:

There is a significant difference in penetration values of the captured and soviets T-34s guns....Even up thru 44, there are differences, favoring germans slightly.

Yep , I checked and you are right. By the way I used only AP ammo and according the AP ammo statistic there is not a big difference at a distance of 150 meters ( at least from what a non grog like myself understand according these figures )

Is such an ammo quality difference able to give such results ? By the way the German captured T-34 has 85% quality armor against the Soviet 90% quality ( I do not know how much important are 5% difference of armor quality )

Khane.

[rune]

Germans used the Pzgr39 and Pzgr40 modified for the 7.62cm PaK36® L42. This is NOT the standard Russian ammo. Also, the German used cupolas, which increased vision greatly.

Looking at the penetration at 60 degrees at 100 meters. Why 60 degrees? Because front armour is either curved or at 60 degrees. The tanks have between 45 and 60mm of armor at 60 degress to the front, depending on the model of the tank. The Russian ammo penetrates 39mm of armor at 60 degrees at 100 meters. The German ammo that was made for the Russian gun penetrates 51mm at 60 degrees.

Chamberlain lists the ammo made for the T34 by the Germans as 98 or 135mm at 30 degrees.

No conspiracy, no uber German modelling, maybe just a realistic representation?

Rune

[ November 09, 2002, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: rune ]