the allied panzerfaust!

[Chad Harrison]

no the allies have not captured a few panzerfausts, and no im not talking about the zook; im talking about the little rifle grenade!

until recently, i thought they were a waste of space, about as usefull as british vanilla rifle troops at close range . then in a RD PBEM (i wont name names) my opponet had a panther which had a killer crest on a hill with a equally killer overlook position. so i spent forever sneaking a hellcat all the way around for a rear shot. the moment of truth comes and he fires, penetrates, no kill, panther rotates and KO's my hellcat on first shot. the game goes on, and the panther never moves. so over time my airborne troops over there get closer and closer. then they rush the panther and POP! one rifle grenade, one dead panther.

recently i have run some experiments and found out that indeed the little sucker has a range of about 60m and can knock out anything but tiger class from the side/rear! i have also started to call those suckers the "halftrack killers"!

any other experiences or tragedies with the rifle grenade?

[Gyrene]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> no the allies have not captured a few panzerfausts, and no im not talking about the zook; im talking about the little rifle grenade! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny enough the germans got the idea for the Panzershreck from captured American bazookas.

Rifle grenades sure beat not having anything with some range like the other Allied troops, they work well when they work at all. They are not very effective against skirtted AFV though.

Gyrene

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gyrene:

Funny enough the germans got the idea for the Panzershreck from captured American bazookas.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats something that i have never understood. we developed the zook first and they copied it a hundred times better (better range/accuracy/penetration). why didnt we ever develop a stonger zook with a larger warhead? off all sides, our boys needed it the most!

the skirted mark IV is not to vulnerable to the grenade, but you have to be a tricky bastage and get em from the behind!

[JasonC]

"why didnt we ever develop a stronger zook"

We did, for Korea. In the first few months there, they found the 60mm couldn't KO T-34/85s. So they developed and airlifted to theater a 3.5 inch bazooka - in other words, a Panzerschreck. By August of 1950. It did the trick.

Why didn't the US field a 3.5 inch bazooka during WW II, say seven years earlier, after fighting Herman Goering Panzer's Tigers in Sicily, perhaps? Partially because the zook was regarded as something of a suicide weapon because of its limited range. Partially because it could take out anything below a Tiger from the side, and there were so few Tigers out and about. When they faced Tigers they shot the tracks and suspension, trying to immobilize them. Partially because there wasn't much German armor sent against the Americans to begin with, and what was sent was heavily outnumbered by US tanks and TDs. And of course, never to be overlooked, because they were complacent and dumb.

[Michael Emrys]

James Gavin, in his book On to Berlin, states that by the time of the Ardennes battle, he had armed his men with captured Fausts. Be interesting if this were possible in the game.

Michael

[Yowie]

Those rifle grenades are totally useless to me. I've been playing CM for more than 14 months, and I only managed to knock out one HT with rifle grenades overall (at about 20m)... And it's not from lack of trying.

Also, don't think its used the same way as fausts - fire at infantry.

Not impressed with its performance!!

[Dogface21]

Ive had them devastate HTs, and even take out a couple of PzIVs in the past. What I dont like about them is you cant tell your troops when to use them. Im sure the reasoning on this is along the lines of 'to much micro managment', but I dont see why you couldnt have the rifle grenade icon like a little button. Only when your troops are in range, you could click this icon and aim for your target, and boom, there you go. BTW, how did 'fausts work? Were they attached to the front of a rifle, or did they come in a tube? Also, why were rifle grenades phased out? It seems like a good idea for a longer range heavy grenade to be deployed, like being able to take out a MG nest without exposing yourself.

[Conscript Bagger]

I've never been able to kill anything with a PF or rifle grenade when I was trying to. When I've seen them fired, which is in maybe 1/3 of my games, it's usually from a hiding squad that has an AFV unexpectedly appear and drive blindly by. I'd say don't count on them if you're defending, but don't count them out if you're attacking.

Dogface, the PF was a shaped charge that fit on the end of a tube, and it was a one-shot throwaway like today's LAW rocket. I'm sure someone will post a link or picture to save a thousand-word better description. As for the rifle grenades being phased out, I don't know when they were, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that they were used up to and beyond the introduction of grenade launchers like the M79.

[ 10-16-2001: Message edited by: Offwhite ]

[jwxspoon]

I just finished a game in which an American squad approached through scattered trees to within about 25-30 meters of my Puma. They fired a side shot into the Puma with a rifle grenade, knocking it out. This was the first time I can remember an American squad doing this in my 75 games or so playing CMBO.

JW

[BeWary]

Yeah, I've been playing CM for over a year now, almost daily, and just the other day saw my first rifle grenade used. I'm sure I've seen others, but this was the first I noticed. I had two squads hiding in ambush when along came a STUG, traveling with its side to the woods. Two of my ambushing squads stand up and fire simultaneously. Both hit at about 50-60 meters! The first one didn't do damage, but the second knocked it out! :cool: I was pleasantly surprised.

I'd agree with the statement, "don't rely on them when defending, but don't count them out when attacking". I've lost vehicles to those damned faust's numerous times.

BeWary

[Chad Harrison]

i can say that i am quite surprised by how rare an effective rifle grenade shot seems to be from everyone elses expereince. in the past couple days my paratroopers have KO two tanks and a halftrack with them in my PBEM games.

now, it was very close (under 40m), i targeted the vehicle with an entire platoon of paratroopers, the vehicle was buttoned from their rifle fire, and there were no escorting infantry. so yes, i assume that the chances of getting this to work more than a couple times are slim. but that was not the point of this post. i was just surprised by how effective they were compared to how i thought they were completely useless.

i would assume that troops under fire, or at longer ranges (50-60m) either wont shoot or will let one fly far right! funny enough, i have now taken out more vehicles with rifle grenades than i have with panzerfausts! i have the hardest time getting my panzergrenaders shooting those at like 30m with a faust100!

[Sergeant Saunders]

In a PBEM game I am currently in, had a RG fired at an infantry unit in scattered trees, it caused a fire. Severely scorched the unit it hit. I had never seen that before.

[Mud]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

i would assume that troops under fire, or at longer ranges (50-60m) either wont shoot or will let one fly far right! funny enough, i have now taken out more vehicles with rifle grenades than i have with panzerfausts! i have the hardest time getting my panzergrenaders shooting those at like 30m with a faust100!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hm. Maybe a Panzerfaust-type weapon is harder to fire for some reason? e.g. is there a backblast that risks setting the place on fire, or maybe the operator needs to stand up or otherwise expose himself to greater risk, or... ?

I've used the rifle grenades against light/medium German vehicles in towns, but that's against the AI, which isn't too good at screening its vehicles with infantry.

[Yowie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sergeant Saunders:

In a PBEM game I am currently in, had a RG fired at an infantry unit in scattered trees, it caused a fire. Severely scorched the unit it hit. I had never seen that before.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW!!! that's new... :eek:

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mud:

Hm. Maybe a Panzerfaust-type weapon is harder to fire for some reason? e.g. is there a backblast that risks setting the place on fire, or maybe the operator needs to stand up or otherwise expose himself to greater risk, or... ?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

actually you hit it right on the nose. not the rifle grenade, but the zook/faust/schreck all had a bad backblast. bad enough to where you could set building/woods on fire. also bad enough to where if you were standing behind one, that was it for you. if you survived, third degree burn blisters for life!

so to fire a zook/faust/schreck you would have to position yourself in such a way that no one was behind you, and you were far enough away from any wall/tree behind you. you would also have to stand up to fire them. so heres a tank coming towards you, you have to stand up take aim and fire at the sucker, and with a backblast like that, that tank will know right where you are. not an appealing situation.

[gredeker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sergeant Saunders:

In a PBEM game I am currently in, had a RG fired at an infantry unit in scattered trees, it caused a fire. Severely scorched the unit it hit. I had never seen that before.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Recently my German forces were engaged in a city fight with some British paratroops, when the LARGE HEAVY building they were in was set on fire by a gammon bomb.

:eek:

[Chad Harrison]

redecker brought up another interesting thing of this game: gammon bombs. in a PBEM the other day, i had some paratroopers in a large heavy building. a full strength squad came into the light building next door. before shooting, my paras threw a gammon bomb down there and all that was left afterwards was one man! :eek: that was my first experience with those things actually doing something!

[Sarge Saunders]

Yes. A rifle grenade can take out a Panther from the rear almost 100%of the time. I experimented on this, because I was down to some Veteran Troops but no tank facing 2 Panthers in a PBEM. I never was able to succesfully flank the Panther tanks, but in the experimental scenario I ran before I tried it was conclusive. Rifle grenades will kill a Panther from the rear consistently.

[Silvio Manuel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

gammon bombs: my paras threw a gammon bomb down there and all that was left afterwards was one man!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Similar to Gammon Bombs...I just had a Brit Rifle Squad be instantly Routed by a Pioneer's Demo Charge...even though they took NO casualites. They ran the other way like you wouldn't believe!

The only Rifle Grenade incident i had was my Vet.US para squad nailing a 250/1 from reverse slope at mebbe 20m. THONK!

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

you would also have to stand up to fire them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not necessarily. The Faust was usually (so far as I have been able to tell) fired from one knee. The Schreck and 'zook could be fired from a prone position, although from the photos I've seen, at least in the case of the 'zook, were more commonly fired from a kneeling stance.

Michael

[Splash]

I've tried firing panzerfaust from inside buildings -- it fires but the squad is an orange pinned instantly -- nobody is ever injured. I've had zooks start the building on fire by firing from inside (to many times). And I've halved a squad of mine by misplacing a gun behind the building they were in. It gained LOS on something and blew into my building. I moved the squad out blasted the building down (from about 1 meter away) and gained my LOS. Ouch!

[pakfront_37]

LAst night in a TCP/IP mechanized QB, I had excellent experinces with both rifle grenades and engineering charges.

An American squad and a half on a flank scouting mission took out an AA gun with a rifle grenade. I had a 'zook 10meters behind, but it never got a chance to fire. IIRC the rilfe squad was about 30 -40m from the AA gun.

At about the same time I had a veteran platoon of american engineers come upon a platoon of dug in Fallsch-whatevers. THose stinkers were Hidden in some dense woods, so by the time my troops spotted them, they were falling into the foxholes. I cursed myself for not scouting properly (it just seemed so unlikely my opponent would have put anyone so far out. ) and watched the movie play, expecting heavy losses. 3 satchel charges later, the foxholes were cleared, 2 german squads were eliminated and another on the run.

The removal of that AA gun on my flank and the success I had with the engineers pretty much assured my victory. Though it was in doubt 2 turns later as I watched two bazooka teams expend 18 rounds on a Puma without even denting it. Nothing a nice shot from a greyhound didn;t clear up though.

I intend to run a few tests to see if this is behavior I can depended on, or if I was just damned lucky.

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Not necessarily. The Faust was usually (so far as I have been able to tell) fired from one knee. The Schreck and 'zook could be fired from a prone position, although from the photos I've seen, at least in the case of the 'zook, were more commonly fired from a kneeling stance.

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

good point also. in the pictures that i have seen and the accounts that i have read (i am no GROG by any means), it seems that most of the time it was either from a standing or kneeling position depending on the terrain/cover. firing from a prone position? thats a new one to me, i dont doubt it, but hadnt heard that before. i assumed that you would take too much heat from the backbalst hitting the gound behind you.

[Specterx]

I've never actually seen a RG being used. I usually play German, though...

As for Fausts, I swear by them. In contrast to the RG which are good for nothing, the German squads always use fausts when tanks are near and almost always hit.

[Jagdwyrm]

In a game recently one of my regular US rifle squads took out a Panzer IV/70 ...side shot as a matter of fact. this is only the second time I have seen this after playing quite a few games. In the other game I have seen they ambushed an StuH 42 with one an KO'd it. I have seen them used a couple times to no effect. But mostly not at all. I dont know why they arent used more often.