the allied panzerfaust!

[Cpl Carrot]

How does one go about aiming a rifle granade. Can you? Or is it a case of about this much elvation and hope for the best?

Cpl Carrot

[PiggDogg]

Carrot,

Rifle gernades cannot be aimed and you cannot order rifle gernades to be fired. The US GIs 'may' use them when they deem it appropriate.

In fact, in a pbem game that I am presently playing, one of my US infantry squads on the ground floor of a heavy building shot a rifle gernade and killed a close and fast approaching German armored car. The close up viewing of the action was pretty cool. :cool: :cool:

Cheers, Richard

[Jagdwyrm]

Id like to correct my own post. What I meant to say is I dont know why they arent used more often against hard targets.

[Cpl Carrot]

Richard, I actually meant in real life.

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cpl Carrot:

How does one go about aiming a rifle granade. Can you? Or is it a case of about this much elvation and hope for the best?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The latter, and I truly wonder if troops were ever given enough training to become proficient in their use. I guess some guys may have had a "knack"...

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

firing from a prone position? thats a new one to me, i dont doubt it, but hadnt heard that before. i assumed that you would take too much heat from the backbalst hitting the gound behind you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only photos I have seen of this are clearly for training/demonstration purposes and not actual combat. Both the firer and his loader are lying with their legs pointed well away from the backblast.

Michael

[Cpl Carrot]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

The latter, and I truly wonder if troops were ever given enough training to become proficient in their use. I guess some guys may have had a "knack"...

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok so how many did the 'average' platoon carry. I assume it is fired by a blank cartridge, meaning you can only really use them on the Springfields as the M1 has the clip system.... ??

[tenfive2]

Chad, you just stir things up.

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: tenfive2 ]</p>

[Chad Harrison]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tenfive2:

Chad, you just stir things up.

<hr></blockquote>

well, i try! what else will entertain us all at work!

[offtaskagain]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cpl Carrot:

Ok so how many did the 'average' platoon carry. I assume it is fired by a blank cartridge, meaning you can only really use them on the Springfields as the M1 has the clip system.... ??<hr></blockquote>

M1s were issued an adapter to fire rifle grenades at some point during the war. I'm not sure when.

[Juardis]

I've had a RPG kill a Panther G frontally, a Panther G in the flank, a JadgPanther in the flank, and a StugIII from behind. I do count on them in defense. Because, as someone said, you cannot discount them on the attack. So most people know to get their precious AFV when infantry gets close by (some people have yet to learn that yet). Sometimes getting them to move is all it takes to setup a flank shot from a tank that previously did not have LOS.

The trick to using them effectively is that the squad that has them cannot be under fire, preferrably unspotted, and of course within range. I have yet to figure out the range but I see someone here tested it at 60m. I've been trying to get under 50m. Obviously, the closer the better. If the squad is taking fire, it invariably will not fire it's RPG.

[Chad Harrison]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Juardis:

I've had a RPG kill a Panther G frontally, a Panther G in the flank, a JadgPanther in the flank, and a StugIII from behind. I do count on them in defense. Because, as someone said, you cannot discount them on the attack. So most people know to get their precious AFV when infantry gets close by (some people have yet to learn that yet). Sometimes getting them to move is all it takes to setup a flank shot from a tank that previously did not have LOS.

The trick to using them effectively is that the squad that has them cannot be under fire, preferrably unspotted, and of course within range. I have yet to figure out the range but I see someone here tested it at 60m. I've been trying to get under 50m. Obviously, the closer the better. If the squad is taking fire, it invariably will not fire it's RPG.<hr></blockquote>

thankyou! i knew i couldnt be the only one who had had some good luck with these little devils. like you said, and like we had said: be close, have a flank/rear shot, and dont be under fire! youll be surprised at what the amis can do.

[PiggDogg]

I have had some luck with inf and rifle gernades. However, I certainly do not expect to have any luck with them. If I get lucky with a rifle gernade, I just figure that it was just some good fortune.

Cheers, Richard

[JasonC]

Actually, the M-1 could fire throughout, the change was that it could be fired semi-auto (using the M7A1 grenade launcher adapter), with the standard action, instead of needing manual cocking (with the previous, M7 one). The earlier system was finicky (because of how it had to be attached to a semi-auto), but possible, with the M-1. The later one had no problems.

Here is a description from off the web -

"The launcher, essentially an extension of the rifle, had six graduations for different ranges (for use in high-angle fire, as with signal and illumination rounds), and also a grenade retainer spring. In use, the launcher was inserted into the stabilizer assembly of the rifle grenade to the appropriate range graduation.

A special grenade cartridge, always hand-loaded, was the propellant for the grenade mounted on a rifle grenade launcher. The first widely used grenade launcher for the M1, the M7, attached to the bayonet lug by a hinged clamp, and had a stud that fitted into the gas cylinder valve screw to hold it open and vent the excess gas from firing this special cartridge. With the development of the M7A1, which permitted full semiautomatic fire when mounted, the M1 became very effective as a grenade launcher. Using the M3 grenade cartridge, an experienced rifleman could fire a MarkII fragmentation grenade with good accuracy almost 200 yards!

The M1 carbine's M8 grenade launcher used the M6 grenade launching cartridge. At about 65% the muzzle energy of the M1 rifle, the carbine could function in the fully semiautomatic mode with the launcher mounted. The M8 clamped on the end of the barrel and was held in place by a wing nut.

There were two basic categories of rifle grenades: hand grenades, projected from the launcher by means of an adapter, and grenades specially designed as rifle grenades. Chemical and pyrothechnic signal flares might be of either type, with star signal flares being designed for rifle launch.

Another example of dedicated rifle grenades was the M9/M9A1 HEAT anti-tank grenade. The M9 weighed about 1.3 pounds, contained a shaped charge similar to the bazooka AT rocket, could penetrate 3 to 4 inches of armor, and had a maximum effective range of 250 yards (probable effectiveness about 100 yards).

Gases produced when the hand-loaded grenade cartridge is fired launch the grenade. For most of the designed rifle grenades, however, the thrust was not great enough to lift them to the desired altitude or propel them with enough force. Therefore, a propelling charge, ignited by flame from the fired cartridge, was assembled in the base of some of the rifle grenades to provide the additional boost. At the same time, the flame from the propelling charge would ignite the black powder of any time train for a time delay fuze, if needed. Fuzes were standard in signal and illumination pyrotechnic rifle grenades.

Because of the heavy recoil generated by the grenade cartridge, the rifle (or carbine) was fired by firmly planting the butt on the ground, turned sideways to avoid damaging the stock."

I hope that helps.

[Charlie Rock]

Interestingly enough, in last week's episode of Band of Brothers SSG Martin uses one to begin the raid on the German OP. The safety on the rifle grenade was a pin several inches up from the base, which was pried off. I don't know if you could load a blank cartridge into the eight round clip---if not, best be fast on the reload.

There was also a fragmentation variant,which looked like a frag grenade on a stick, which could be fired off similarly and in Company Commander, by Charles MacDonald, there was a reference to GI's somehow firing 60mm mortar shells off the barrel with some sort of adapter. I never heard of that anywhere else, and I assume you'd half to plant the butt in the ground to absorb the recoil.

For hollow charge warheads penetration is a function of the diameter of the warhead. A 40mm grenade nowadays from a M203 goes through about two inches, and that would seem about right to me. One of the reasons panzerfausts,and in turn, RPG-7s, are so effective is because they are muzzle loaders and you can put a six inch warhead on a two-three inch tube. Panzerschreks, at 88mm are just about the same as 3.5's.

[Sig]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

good point also. in the pictures that i have seen and the accounts that i have read (i am no GROG by any means), it seems that most of the time it was either from a standing or kneeling position depending on the terrain/cover. firing from a prone position? thats a new one to me, i dont doubt it, but hadnt heard that before. i assumed that you would take too much heat from the backbalst hitting the gound behind you.<hr></blockquote>

Hello,

As I have many times fired an equivalent of the Panzerschreck during my army days, I can answer your question: no problem firing in a prone position. Just put your legs at an angle with the tube, and you won't even feel the heat. The loader as to be a little bit more careful: avoid looking back, in case of a reflection of the backblast on a terrain feature, and protect the primer and the detonator of the next rocket (normally held in hand, ready to be recharged).

One problem when firing these weapons is when the terrain is very dry and with little vegetation (dust cloud) or when firing in a prone position in the snow (the little window in the shield is then covered with half molten snow). Vision is impaired and it slows down the firing of the next rocket by a few seconds.

An info about rate of fire: with a good loader and good coordination, two shots on target in less than 8 seconds was easy. Best rate I observed was 2 on target (dist. around 150m, ranged) in 3.5 sec. But that was during a test, and was not very "tactical" (loader was not lying flat). Mean value we were able to obtain after some training was around 6 seconds.

Accuracy: surprisingly good in the "point blank-200m" range. Surprisingly, because the aiming system was rather crude (a loop and a "pin").

Transport: &%*=)ç%%ç*"?`#!! (And I try to be polite) Cumbersome. When on the march, it was a pain to be the AT-guy. Never figured out how to transport it in a convenient way, except by removing the shield, and stuffing everything in the backpack. When attacking, was ok. A bit annoying because most of the time you needed to hold it with both hands: the center of gravity is moved a bit to the rear of the tube (on attack, the tube is loaded with a rocket).

When fired, these weapons are very impressive: a very loud "soft" BAAOM, followed by the whistling of the rocket fins. It looks as if the firer has to control a HUGE recoil. In fact, almost no recoil, but when the blast of the rocket hits the shield it causes an upward movement of the tube. With good training, you are able to reacquire target almost immediately.

Hope you find these little bits of info interesting.

Sig

[Chad Harrison]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sig:

Hope you find these little bits of info interesting.

Sig<hr></blockquote>

darn you lucky ones who get to actually shoot these things! the only bragging rights that i have is that my dad has a full auto m16a1 and i grew up shooting that! full auto with a 40 clip on a tower of soda cans at 10 years old cant be beaten!

[Kimerik Kukka]

Sometimes when making a scenario I use split infatry squads with added panzerfausts as antitank ambushing teams. Works well. 2 to 4 teams can have a total of 4 to 8 PZs. With that firepower they can take out few armour which have to be unsupported by infantry of course. If having TRP on the ambush spot artillery smoke screen will considerable help extracting the ambushers alive.

[Chad Harrison]

along those same lines, when i make a battle and the allies have a shortage on zooks/AT guns/armor, i will give out a lot of rifle grenades. usually nothing more than a HT will be toasted, but it feels good to have something!