JeffRaider Posted July 7, 2000 Share Posted July 7, 2000 Has anyone else found the Arnhem operation to be a bit too easy. My first and only go of it was VERY easy. On the first turn of the first battle I had overrun most of Arnhem's defenses, the bunker, the platoon on the left, etc. The puma was popped the next turn. I set up one platoon in the building on the right of the bridge, and three PIATs, one on the right building, two on the left. I set up the rest of my troops in a perimeter around my bridge defense, expecting more troops. That single platoon held the entire operation, and didn't take more than 4 casualties per battle, a total of 12 overall. I used all of my mortars, and my sharpshooters and FOs, and nothing else. None of my other troops were engaged at all. Is it just me or is the bridge just too difficult for the AI to attack across? The map is brilliant, of course, but I know Johnny Frost had a tougher go of it than I did. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted July 7, 2000 Share Posted July 7, 2000 I have not played the Arnhem op from the Brit side, but oddly enough, it was a cake walk from the German side. The Brits never even got to the bridge to begin with! One thing I found exceptionally odd about the entire operation is that the German attacks and reinforcements are all coming from the south, across the bridge. With the exception of Grabners stupid and abortive attempt to cross the bridge, the first night, Frosts' battalion was wiped out exclusively from attacks from the north, mainly from 9th SS and assorted units attached, who were attempting to take the bridge in order to link up with forces in Nijmegen to the south. Indeed, the entire reason for it being important for Frost to hold the bridge (in the operational scope of the Market Garden campaign) is to deny the Germans the ability to easily reinforce Nijmegen to the south! I wonder if Wild Bill would mind if I re-did his op, trying to make it a little more historically accurate with that nice map he made? Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 8, 2000 Share Posted July 8, 2000 No problem, Jeff. Help yourself. I'd enjoy seeing it. There has never been anything made yet that can't be improved And I don't blame you for not wanting to that map ...WB ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 8, 2000 Share Posted July 8, 2000 Okay you two Jeffs, I tried to be gentle,designing an operation you could win from either side without too much difficulty, but no, you would have none of it! I'm gonna put the hurt on you. You send me a note when you are ready, and I'll give you one to try that will make up for these "easy" victories Any takers ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com [This message has been edited by Wild Bill Wilder (edited 07-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted July 8, 2000 Share Posted July 8, 2000 Thanks, Bill. Yep, that map looks like it took a *LOT* of work. If I can steal it from someone else, so much the better! I might have a week of dead time coming up shortly, so I will start to do some research on OBs and such. I'll see what I can come up with... Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 8, 2000 Share Posted July 8, 2000 Great. I look forward to it. Let us know when its ready... ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffRaider Posted July 8, 2000 Author Share Posted July 8, 2000 I'm ready, Bill! Attack of the Jeffs commence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 8, 2000 Share Posted July 8, 2000 On the way, Jeff Raider. Get ready for some serious fighting ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted July 9, 2000 Share Posted July 9, 2000 I think it's an AI issue. I totally destroyed the germans as they ran across the bridge into my ambush just up on the high ground. Aren't we asking to much of CM here? We can't expect battles to play out with historical accuracy. I think the only way for the AI to beat a human in that operations would be to run them out of ammunition. Personnaly, I was surprised how much resupply the brits got. I didn't even run out of PIAT rounds. IMO, I think OPERATIONS are out of the scope of CM. It is a small scale game. And that is the way I like it. The game is designed to be played on a medium sized map between 2 humans. ------------------ Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted July 9, 2000 Share Posted July 9, 2000 > I think it's an AI issue. > I totally destroyed the germans as they > ran across the bridge into my ambush just > up on the high ground. I'm not so sure. Assuming that the Brits can set up a nice perimeter on the North side of the bridge following the first battle, the Germans are going to have a hard time crossing the bridge in subsequent battles even with a human commander. I didn't really see enough heavy arty/guns on the German side that could be used to pulverize those heavy buildings on either side of the bridge and that would sort of be the key. I would probably use smoke if I was the krauts, but dislodging that bridgehead would be really nasty assuming the Brits don't lose too much in battle 1. It's sort of a shame that it doesn't seem the Germans can exert pressure from both sides of the river - that would make it a whole new ballgame. p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 9, 2000 Share Posted July 9, 2000 I would tend to agree to a point. Some operations, but perhaps smaller would work better. As to the buildings, when I play tested the scenario, the STU-42s pulverized those buildings. It brought one down and I lost nearly an entire platoon of Red Devils, plus two badly needed Pzschrecks! Argh! ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 > As to the buildings, when I play tested > the scenario, the STU-42s pulverized those >buildings. It brought one down and I lost > nearly an entire platoon of Red Devils, > plus two badly needed Pzschrecks! Argh! Hi Bill, If the AI did that I'm really impressed. The way it should be! Sorry about your Piats though. Now that I've played a few more operations I understand completely what you were saying about not having any control over how the computer orients the front lines and that it makes things difficult when designing the op. I think part of the problem is that when you design the operation and you have to say which way the attacker is coming from you can only give one direction. That makes the Destroy type operations a little problematic - these are usually meant to simulate a surrounded defender, but the mechanics of the operation engine insist on only drawing one front and having reinforcements come in from one direction. Do you think that there's any possibility of Charles adding something in where you can specify an attack coming from many different directions? That way you could get a nice pocket where the paras have to defend from all directions. In CM2, I imagine it would be almost a necessity to simulate the fighting in the Kessel. Also, maybe it would be nice to have some objective spots in operations, even if they don't count for any/many points to give some focus points to concentrate the defense around. In Arnhem, maybe one objective on either side of the bridge, just to make it clear that this is what all the fighting's about. I don't know how the AI would handle this op. if playing the Brits, but I doubt they'd go for the bridge if they weren't told that it was important via an objective. p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 That feature you describe certainly would have my backing, P! I guess maybe my brain is a little slow, but I would like a more specific type of objective too. Don't get me wrong. This is not a rebellious mutiny on my part, just a plea for a clearer understanding of the process and a way to do some of the things P has mentioned. Multiple entry areas is vital to making an operation more exciting. Sorry about the panzershrecks. After 300 E-mails and posts, it all starts to blur..Piats! Yes I guess they were sorrier than I was . ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Bill, go ahead and send that game! My rendition is coming along. Learning a lot about designing ops. The manual sure could use some more detail on these... Is there some reason that reinforcements cannot include fortifications after the on-map setup? Note: Many of the complaints about this op have to do with the fact that there is essentially an error in how this is represented in the Operation, compared to what happened historically. 2nd Para was NOT wiped out from attacks from across the bridge. Indeed, there was only ONE German attempted attack from across the bridge. On the morning of 18SEP, SS Capt. Grabner attempted to rush the north end of the bridge from the south with his Armored Recon Company of 10th SS Panzer. 22 vehicles, including mutiple loaded halftracks, attempted to breakthrough to the North end of the bridge from the south. The comapany, representing (at the time) the largest concentration of armor available to the Germans, was almost completely wiped out by the British defenders. When you look at actual photgraphs of the bridge after the battle, all the wrecked vehicles blocking the north end came from this rather arrogant attempt. Over the next three days, 2nd Para was destroyed by constant attacks from the North, as the Germans attempted to wrest the bridge from Brit control in order to reinforce their units holding the Nijmegen bridge against 101st Airborne to the south. The irony of the Arnhem campaign is that the Germans only succeeded in grabbing the Arnhem bridge shortly after the Allies managed to grab the Nijmegen bridge. So neither side was able to hold both bridges at the same time, and hence neither side could exploit their local success. While the Allies held the Arnhem bridge, they did not hold Nijmegen. While the Germans held Nijmegen, they did not hold Arnhem, and vice versa. The sinlge best text I have read (and I have read most of them) on the Market-Garden campaign is "It Never Snows in September". I highly recommend it for anyone interested in why and how the German managed to win this battle. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffRaider Posted July 10, 2000 Author Share Posted July 10, 2000 Perhaps the operation is backwards, meaning that the armor should appear in the first battle across the bridge, and all other German forces should be coming from the north. That would make it pretty hair-raising. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 I really wanted more attacks from the north side of the river. I just could not figure out a way to do it. Since completing the campaign and after publication, I have thought of a possibility. Jeff, you may want to try this. It might work. Do the Arnhem map diagonally, with river running southwest to northeast. Then that would allow the east side of the map to become available north and south of the river. That way you could have German attacks from both the north and the south side of the river. Kind of like this. East .............../ ............../ ............./ Arnhem.....--- (bridge) South .........../ ........../ West Now, with the east side of the map available both north and south side, it might work. Of course, you'll have to redo that very complicated map But it might work. Scenario coming, Jeff...WB ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com [This message has been edited by Wild Bill Wilder (edited 07-10-2000).] [This message has been edited by Wild Bill Wilder (edited 07-10-2000).] [This message has been edited by Wild Bill Wilder (edited 07-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Bill, I think what I am actually going to do is just not allow the Germans to attack from the south. Like I said, the only significant German unit that managed to get over the bridge before 2nd Para took the North end was Graebners recon battalion, and they were wiped out when they tried to attack back across the bridge. Basically, trying to take the north end of the bridge from the south end is going to be almost impossible for the Germans, or anyone else. After Graebners Folly (great title for a scenario...), there were no more attacks on 2nd Para from across the bridge, mainly because there were no more German units between Arnhem and Nijmegen (i.e. south of the bridge), and what few units did mnage to cross at the Driel ferry were committed at Nijmegen. I hope to try to recreate the relentless pounding on the dug in 2nd Para guys. This could be a great op, as the elite 2nd Para try to hold off waves of mixed German troops, from totally inexerienced conscripts raised from Luftwaffe personel to SS Panzergrenadiers supported by assault guns and King Tigers. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Jeff H., I'd be very interested in a scenario that depicted the German attacks on Frost's battalion from the north (and east and west). If you need someone to help you playtest, please drop me a line. Paul "Martyr" Roberts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Paul, no problem. I will send you the Op when I get it done. I am expecting it will need a lot of play balancing work, so some testers will be useful. Since you cannot have the Germans attacking from more than one direction, their reinforcements will always have to come from the north. But I do not think the Brits will have enough troops to secure the width of the map, so they should be forced into a hemisphere, which will allow the German to at least surround them. Bill, I assume that the one direction thing only applies to the direction of reinforcements, right? If the Germans force the Brits away from the west edge (for example) they will lose that area for setup in the next scenario? I sure hope so! Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 I see what you mean about the direction of attack, Jeff. It would be great if BTS would allow us to change the direction of reinforcements for each battle in an operation. Maybe in CM2. Good luck with your design! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 I would much prefer that, Martyr. I would like for the designer to be able to designate at least a zone where new units in the next battle would enter from. Not really knowing is a problem sometimes... ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffRaider Posted July 11, 2000 Author Share Posted July 11, 2000 Jeff, count me in to test that op, too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted July 14, 2000 Share Posted July 14, 2000 I wanna test it! i wanna test it! count me in =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londoner Posted July 15, 2000 Share Posted July 15, 2000 Agreed, beatin the AI is to easy even blind with the current operations (at least as Germans). Even defensive Ops tend 2 turn into full blown attacks, we need tougher assignments Bill! BTW cheers 4 all the time u put in creating some amazin maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londoner Posted July 15, 2000 Share Posted July 15, 2000 Yo Jeff, u gonna send me the next turn in our PBEM? Things were just gettin interestin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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