37mm anti tank guns

[Jim Harrison]

I am surprised to find GE units armed with this weapon since by the time of the Russian Front they KNEW the piece was ineffective against all but VERY light armour (they found out in BoF).

I just played popguns and elephants (well sort of I quit game when relizing that the GE forces had NOTHING to stop the Russian armour) and was amazed to see that the designer assigned 37mm AT to the GE side when by that time 50mm AT were the standard (I believe).

[dalem]

I think you'll find that through MUCH of the early war on the East Front the GERMANS had some INFERIOR equipment as compared to the Soviets. Even when the Germans DID get GOOD equipment it was NOT always in sufficient QUANTITY. Some regimental antitank companies were stuck with the Pak36 (for instance) until the middle of '42 I believe.

-dale

[MikeyD]

Just because 50mm Pak was standard didn't mean 37mm disappeared completely. The Germans picked up MASSIVE quantities of the Russian license-built version of the Rheinmetall 37mm gun (yes, the same gun down to the nuts and bolts) in the first months of the invasion and were in no position to discard the gun wholesale.

I suspect one purpose of the pop-guns scenario was specifically to give you an idea what a typical Axis unit had to contend with. Anti-tank guns don't work? What do you do then? A lot of guys on the Eastern Front asked themselves the same question.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Jim Harrison:

I am surprised to find GE units armed with this weapon since by the time of the Russian Front they KNEW the piece was ineffective against all but VERY light armour (they found out in BoF).

It was adequate, though just barely, to deal with most of the armor encountered in France and the Low Countries. Same for the British armor in North Africa. Most of the early war tanks were pretty lightly armored compared to what came later.

It was also adequate to deal with the great majority of Soviet armor encountered during Barbarossa. Remember, the Germans had no inkling of the existence of the T-34 and KV-1 until they encountered them on the battlefield.

I...was amazed to see that the designer assigned 37mm AT to the GE side when by that time 50mm AT were the standard (I believe).

It may not have been as standard as you think. After the Battle for France, development and introduction of most new weapons was slowed down by Hitler, who apparently thought that the war had entered an extended pause that would permit him to reap the fruits of victory. When the Soviets began to show increased aggressiveness in sensitive areas (i.e., Bessarabia) and he wasn't always able to get his way through diplomacy, he made up his mind to go to war with them at the start of the next campaigning season. This started a new round of expansion of the Wehmacht, but they had lost several months and were now forced to play catch up.

Michael

[ October 03, 2002, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[MikeyD]

I recall Matt once stated that he had a particular fondness for heavily unbalanced scenarios. After all, a battle isn't necessarily a chess match where everybody starts out with the same pieces. Therefore you're going to get scenarios where your anti-tank guns are inadequate, or scenarios where Volksturm units with depleted ammo face-off against IS-2s and crack Guards units. To coin a phrase, life's a bitch.

Still, I'm surprised the CD scenarios I've played so far are as balanced as they are. There's no reason someone couldn't have added a few truely hopeless situations to the list. Dropped the ammo level on one side to zero and have the other side assault in force, for instance. You can't say it wouldn't have been historically accurate!

[ October 03, 2002, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Little_Black_Devil]

****Spoiler down below****

I saw this thread, and then tried the scenario it refers to.

I was particularly looking for something, which I was most interested in before I actually got the full version of the game.

This was of course - whether or not the Pak36 had access to its spigot-bomb/stick-bomb (Stielgranate-41).

This was a Hollow Charge round, which was muzzle loaded and propelled by what was essentially just a cartridge cassing with propellent (no fixed bullet) - basically, simillar to blank ammunition, though the casing in this case was not crimped.

Anyhow - I was quite pleased to see the "HC", for Hollow Charge listed as part of the Pak36's in this particular scenario - meaning that yes indeed, the Stielgranate-41 DID make the Pak36's ammunition loadout for CMBB.

:cool:

Heck, one of my guns even had a few Pzgr40 rounds.

My point - other than my jubilation at seeing the inclusion of the Stielgranate-41; is that according to Ian V. Hogg's "German Artillery of World War Two" this particular projectile, was capeable of penetrating 180mm of armour (presumeably homogenous armoured plate at 30° - the book doesn't specify the angle). Furthermmore, it was only really effective up to about 300m, however its maximum range was actually 800m. It had a slow velocity of just 110mps. Obviously - this munition, brings a whole new lease on life to the Pak36 - giving it the ability to penetrate the armour of both the T-34's and the KV's, albeit at close range.

Anyone else seen "Men Against Tanks"?

So whats the big deal about the Pak36's HC round?

**Spoiler***

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Well, the availability of the HC round means, that if you are able to sucker the Soviet tanks in close to your defence, and site your guns (MG's and ATG's) in defilade to produce enfilade fire - then you are quite capeable of taking out both the T-34's in this scenario and the KV's. I used my mortars to keep the Infantry from advancing, and to seperate them from the enemy tanks. You can, for the most part leave your rifle sections out front to help prevent any stragling enemy Infantry from penetrating your defensive. In addition, making a few teams available to assist in tank destruction also made this task a little easier. I was not able to kill all of the enemy tanks - as not all of them advanced close enough. The Soviet tankers that did get too close, ended up walking home, dead or as prisoners.

Against the computer, I found this scenario fairly easy to win as the Germans. I would imagine that playing a human opponent would not be quite so cut and dried, though the possibility to win as the Germans is still there by virtue of the tools they do have available to them.

But thats just me.

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

It was also adequate to deal with the great majority of Soviet armor encountered during Barbarossa. Remember, the Germans had no inkling of the existence of the T-34 and KV-1 until they encountered them on the battlefield.

Michael[/QB]

The German's were aware of the T-34's exsitance as in an *OKW internal document on Soviet military industrial capacity with an cut off date of March 1941 identified a new Soviet 32 ton tank the "T-32" (which was the T-34's original designation) was being produced in several Soviet tank factories.

*See: Zaloga Steven J, Technological Suprise and the Initial Period of War: The Case of the T-34 Tank in 1941 The Journal of Slavic Military Studies. Vol.6 No. 4 December 1993. pp. 634 - 646

[Dale H]

I am no grognard or expert but my reading about the Eastern front has told me that the 37 mm PAK was standard issue & the exclusive weapon of anti-tank gunnery units in the Wehrmacht early in the campaign on the East Front. Although they were poorly effective against thick frontal armor of the advanced medium & heavy AFVs they had to fight against, they were employed successfully because they were all that was available & because it was the Germans who employed them ie they were expected to find a way to make them work. I suspect they could be quite lethal at relatively close range to the side & rear armor of the AFVs & they were also small & relatively easy to hide & relatively more portable than heavier calibers of PAK weapons. I may be wrong about this & I cannot guote chapter & verse. I read an autobiography a while back about a German anti-tank gunner in the Crimea with AG South but I can't recall the title or author. Always willing to stand corrected & not trying to pick a fight.

Dale H

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Bastables:

The German's were aware of the T-34's exsitance as in an *OKW internal document on Soviet military industrial capacity with an cut off date of March 1941 identified a new Soviet 32 ton tank the "T-32" (which was the T-34's original designation) was being produced in several Soviet tank factories.

They were late, they were off on designation, meaning of the designation and weight of the tank (although they lucked into the ballpark figure), and there is no telling what they actually knew about the rest of this tank. So did they have any idea of it's armour or armament? or of it's intended use?

[ October 03, 2002, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: Foxbat ]

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Jim Harrison:

I am surprised to find GE units armed with this weapon since by the time of the Russian Front they KNEW the piece was ineffective against all but VERY light armour (they found out in BoF).

At the time the US still had the .50 in the TOE as it's main AT weapon, advances in armour and armament were going really fast and the germans were bringing what had been a usefull gun to Russia as their most common AT weapon, it was only there that it got the 'Doorknocker' nickname.

[dalem]

Originally posted by Dale H:

I read an autobiography a while back about a German anti-tank gunner in the Crimea with AG South but I can't recall the title or author. Always willing to stand corrected & not trying to pick a fight.

Dale H

In Deadly Combat by Bidermann? Just finishing that one up today, myself.

-dale

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Bastables:

The German's were aware of the T-34's exsitance as in an *OKW internal document on Soviet military industrial capacity with an cut off date of March 1941 identified a new Soviet 32 ton tank the "T-32" (which was the T-34's original designation) was being produced in several Soviet tank factories.

*See: Zaloga Steven J, Technological Suprise and the Initial Period of War: The Case of the T-34 Tank in 1941 The Journal of Slavic Military Studies. Vol.6 No. 4 December 1993. pp. 634 - 646

Yes, but how far down the chain of command was this document circulated prior to the opening of the campaign? I would like to find the answer to this question as everything I have read so far indicates that for the troops in the field the advent of the two new Soviet tanks was indeed a surprise.

Michael

[ October 03, 2002, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bastables:

The German's were aware of the T-34's exsitance as in an *OKW internal document on Soviet military industrial capacity with an cut off date of March 1941 identified a new Soviet 32 ton tank the "T-32" (which was the T-34's original designation) was being produced in several Soviet tank factories.

*See: Zaloga Steven J, Technological Suprise and the Initial Period of War: The Case of the T-34 Tank in 1941 The Journal of Slavic Military Studies. Vol.6 No. 4 December 1993. pp. 634 - 646

Yes, but how far down the chain of command was this document circulated prior to the opening of the campaign? I would like to find the answer to this question as everything I have read so far indicates that for the troops in the field the advent of the two new Soviet tanks was indeed a surprise.

Michael</font>

[Michael Emrys]

[sigh]

Of course not. What a silly thing to say.

What I want to know is did the army groups know of these tanks? Armies? Corps?

Who knew other than the people who drew up this report and the people who buried it in a drawer somewhere?

Michael

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

[sigh]

Of course not. What a silly thing to say.

What I want to know is did the army groups know of these tanks? Armies? Corps?

Who knew other than the people who drew up this report and the people who buried it in a drawer somewhere?

Michael

Again this is a significant departure from weapons procurement and if the Germans knew about it [T-34] that you implied in your earlier statement. The Germans had developed and were testing earlier variants of the PaK 40 7,5cm /40 by July 1940 and ready for serial production in the spring of 1941. By Nov 1941 the project was cancelled in favour of the PaK 40 7,5cm /43. Never mind the PaK 39 5cm /60. The German command consciously went with cheaper guns inspite of knowledge of Russian T-34s and British Matildas.

The PaK and Panzer units were armed with weapons insufficient for combating Russian heavies. There is a parallel with the tankers and anti tank units of the US army in Normandy. And both Armies had better weapon ready for production, but chose to go with the cheaper option.

[Jim Harrison]

Not to argue but I think the Germans found the 37mm ineffective in France vs the Char Bis and got the name "door knocker" at that time. I do not dispute the fact that it was probably used alot as pointed out by some posters. I guess as far as game balance is concerned I am just curious as what you guys like??? Some ideas here seem say "yeah lets play WWI trench warfare, you be the Brits and charge into the German machineguns" Hardly what I would like to play. I guess I am more looking for the "what if" kinds of senario's where different tactics might have changed the out come.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Bastables:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael emrys:

[sigh]

Of course not. What a silly thing to say.

What I want to know is did the army groups know of these tanks? Armies? Corps?

Who knew other than the people who drew up this report and the people who buried it in a drawer somewhere?

Michael

Again this is a significant departure from weapons procurement and if the Germans knew about it [T-34] that you implied in your earlier statement. The Germans had developed and were testing earlier variants of the PaK 40 7,5cm /40 by July 1940 and ready for serial production in the spring of 1941. By Nov 1941 the project was cancelled in favour of the PaK 40 7,5cm /43. Never mind the PaK 39 5cm /60. The German command consciously went with cheaper guns inspite of knowledge of Russian T-34s and British Matildas.

The PaK and Panzer units were armed with weapons insufficient for combating Russian heavies. There is a parallel with the tankers and anti tank units of the US army in Normandy. And both Armies had better weapon ready for production, but chose to go with the cheaper option.</font>

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

[You misread the intent of Michael's post completely.

He is saying that the T-34 and KV-1 came as a surprise to the TROOPS IN THE FIELD who encountered them and had to deal with them![/QB]

That "the Germans had no inkling" is quite different to the “German Rank and file was surprised by the advent of T34/KVs.” Or perhaps it is just a comprehension problem in my part.

[Chad Harrison]

I think that the 37mm gun stayed in use much longer than was desired because of the need for guns, and no replacements in great numbers. I would say that it say action for some time in second line troops.

Chad

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Bastables:

Or perhaps it is just a comprehension problem in my part.

Indeed. In the first place, I had already heard of (though I have no detailed knowledge, i.e. have not read the damn thing) the OKW report you mentioned. Which is to say, I did know that there was a person or persons in Germany who knew of the T-34. My point was that that information had had no impact on development and production of upgraded AT weaponry. I think you and I are in accord on that part.

Where we perhaps differ is that, if I read you right, you say that it was a case of intentional indifference on the part of those charged with procurement, whereas I think that has not been proven. There is a possible case that the information simply had not reached those who make such decisions. I also was trying to make the point, however clumsily, that those who would have constituted a natural lobby in favor of a weapons upgrade—to wit the generals who would command the forces actually engaged with the enemy and charged with the responsibility of defeating him—were also left out of the loop.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned the whole slow down in rearming after the Battle for France. This was done at the behest of Hitler. It is a characteristic of autarchies such as the Third Reich that information that the Boss doesn't want to hear gets buried. In 1940 this was not so far advanced in Germany as it would later become, but can we rule it out as a factor? Did someone in whatever intelligence bureau that was responsible for the report decide that if Hitler had declared that serious rearming was not on, then it wasn't a propitious moment to bring contrary facts to light? If you know the answer, I sincerely hope you will share it with us, because I will tell you quite frankly that I don't have it.

BTW, the reason usually given for the cutback on rearmament in the latter half of 1940 is that Hitler wanted to devote maximum production to consumer goods over military production. He never felt entirely confident of the support of the people and so far as he could tried to placate them with a high standard of living.

This is probably the case, but I have begun to wonder if there might not have been something else going through Hitler's mind at this time. He seems to have not really settled on a strategy at this point in the war. There was a sort of vague notion of defeating Britain. A whole host of ideas for various operations were tossed up, but came to little or nothing. Hitler had little deep enthusiasm for the project, and indeed Germany's force structure was poorly designed to carry out most of them. It was out of this drifting vagueness that the idea for Barbarossa crystalized. That the Wehrmacht was not up to doing this either was not so immediately apparent.

Michael

[Bastables]

A fine rendition of us arguing past each other.

Although I'd give the case of the Short 5cm PIII and Hitler's rage when he found out it was not armed with the longer 5cm gun.

And then there is the case of the Stg 42/43/MP44 which had been placed in production right under Hitlers nose.

Then there is the "new" Stand fast def doctrine espoused by Hitler in 41, which down to Coy level was either followed due to local conditions and lack of men, ignored and instead continued to run with variants of the post 1916 mobile defence.

[ October 04, 2002, 02:48 AM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Bastables:

And then there is the case of the Stg 42/43/MP44 which had been placed in production right under Hitlers nose.

Yep. I see this as supporting one part of my argument. This was a case of the people who needed it, and those sympathetic to them, getting it done. I think if the people who needed the PaK 38 and PaK 40 knew just how much they were going to need it, they would have raised bloody hell to get it. My guess anyway.

Michael

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bastables:

And then there is the case of the Stg 42/43/MP44 which had been placed in production right under Hitlers nose.

Yep. I see this as supporting one part of my argument. This was a case of the people who needed it, and those sympathetic to them, getting it done. I think if the people who needed the PaK 38 and PaK 40 knew just how much they were going to need it, they would have raised bloody hell to get it. My guess anyway.

Michael</font>

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Jim Harrison:

I just played popguns and elephants (well sort of I quit game when relizing that the GE forces had NOTHING to stop the Russian armour) and was amazed to see that the designer assigned 37mm AT to the GE side when by that time 50mm AT were the standard (I believe).

Because that is exactly what the Germans had there... not PaK38s. Also, the PaK38 was not standard at that time, but only just starting to replace the older PaK36

[Dale H]

September, 1941, near Kiev:

Small rear-guard action protecting an adjustment in the deployment of our Panzer Grenadier battalion:

1) Motorized Infantry Platoon

2) 4 X PAK 37x45's

All hiding, entrenched in Scattered Woods

Enemy force: 3 Red monsters: T-34's!

Result: No enemy vehicles stopped or incapacitated & 2/2 PAK crews engaged eliminated

"Door-Knockers" indeed; all the shooting did is made the tank crews mad & alerted them to our locations

I suppose the Germans did a better job than I did but you got to admire the courage it took to crew one of those weapons against a T34. My crews waited until the last moment when the tanks could be shot at from the side at close range (less than 50 meters) & they did no real damage at all on a few re-runs of the decisive turns.

Also, got to admire CMBB for such a great job in re-creating actions like this.

Enough said,

Dale H

[ October 04, 2002, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: Dale H ]