a question for the historians

[newlife]

Hi,

I seem to recal something about Soviet doctrine having a second line of soldiers behind the first wave who would shoot anyone retreating. Is there any truth to this? Secondly, will it be modeled in CM? (Then again, it already is with most players aggresive play )

Pete

[Bruno Weiss]

It did look cool in Enemy at the Gates. Probably cuts down on the rush to get in line back at the mess hall also.

Ah, good idea. This would be a great modifier to offset the Winter Weather modifier proposal. I can just sit there then and watch Uncle Joe's troops mow themselves down.

[ February 21, 2002, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[SuperTed]

"...any soldier not willing to fight or on the retreat was shot by NKVD troops."

The above quote is from here.

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by SuperTed:

"...any soldier not willing to fight or on the retreat was shot by NKVD troops."

The above quote is from here.

NKVD troops wore "green hats" as the regular Soviet troops called them. They lingered in the rear areas (away from the front line action) and would shoot anyone SUSPECTED of desersion. As a result, even troops given proper leave from their units on the front lines were anxious as they passed through NKVD checkpoints. :eek:

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by newlife:

Hi,

I seem to recal something about Soviet doctrine having a second line of soldiers behind the first wave who would shoot anyone retreating. Is there any truth to this? Secondly, will it be modeled in CM? (Then again, it already is with most players aggresive play )

Pete

This is not uniquely a Soviet practice. During WW1 all sides used what were then called "Battle Police", as mentioned in the section of Keegan's "Face of Battle" on the Somme. ISTR that Wintringham or Orwell or someone who fought in Spain with the International Brigades commented that the performance of the volunteers was especially good considering that there were no "battle police". Suvurov mentions NKVD "retreat-blocking detachments" in "Icebreaker", and although other aspects of that book have now I understand been refuted, I find it hard to imagine that this one has. According to Jack Radey's notes in his excellent "Black Sea, Black Death" boardgame, the German practice of having MGs offering "support to the rear" for potentially shaky allies was "Korsetstarken".

All the best,

John.

[Michael Dorosh]

The Germans had "Feldjäger" by 1945 set up for just this purpose, plus permission to shoot on the spot anyone suspected of deserting - ie walking around behind the lines without travel orders, Soldbuch, etc.

As their name implies, their mission was to roam around and seek out deserters and shirkers.

I believe the current Bundeswehr military police are called Feldjäger, incidentally, rather than Feldgendarmerie....I am open to correction on that one.

One US soldier and one Canadian soldier were shot (after a trial) for desertion in WW II. Eddie Slovik and Joseph Pringle were supposed to be examples, I suppose.

I believe Bartov gives figures for the number of executions in the German Army before late 1944; after that, they lost track since shootings became summary.

The Germans call it "Dienstliche befehl" - 'Official Order'; it is a power granted to sentries, field police, etc. A sentry given this power could call on a soldier of any rank to halt at his sentry post; after a number of warnings to comply wer ignored, the "official order" could be gien, after which the sentry was empowered to shoot whoever was failing to obey him.

[ February 21, 2002, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Slapdragon]

The United States Army used MPs to stop and in some cases shoot deserters in Korea.

[JunoReactor]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I believe the current Bundeswehr military police are called Feldjäger, incidentally, rather than Feldgendarmerie....I am open to correction on that one.

I belive the reason is that "gendarmerie" is French.

[mrcitizenkane]

Yea, the regular German army troops shot SS too. I was watching a doc with interviews of German W.W.II vets. They said it was common late in the war. One day him and another enlisted guy was approached by SS officer and ordered to protect him, about the time their NCO approached him drew his side arm and shot him in the head. To much of a liability since the Soviets loved to get there hands on the SS!

[mrcitizenkane]

"Army-Waffen-SS relations hit their low during the April 1941 invasion of Yugoslavia. There were several incidents in which SS troops threatened to fire on army columns clogging the line of advance. (One SS regiment leader even positioned antitank mines directly below the front tires of the first truck in an army column, and posted a SS grenadier with strict orders to shoot any German soldier who moved the mines!) In fact the Army's GrossDeutchland division and the Waffen-SS Das Reich division were competing to be the first to capture Belgrade, the Yugoslav capital. (The SS won, thanks to the efforts of SS-Oberführer Fritz Klingenberg - who captured the city first)"

From http://www.wssob.com/combat.html

[M Hofbauer]

Michael,

of course you are correct, once more your astonishing knowledge on German WW II matters shows.

Indeed these Feldjägerkorps existed, they were established December 1943. Besides their primary employment of controlling rear areas and apprehending AWOLs they also had a secondary function in "regular" MP duties such as traffic control and disaster control (~usually of the air raid - induced type).

It is indeed interesting that the modern MPs are called Feldjäger, but the reason is that it is a historic term that predates the WW II / ThirdReich usage, it dates back I think to the prussian horse-mounted Feldjägerkorps.

Another Ordnungsdienst of that kind was the Wehrmachtsstreifendienst, which was a combined rear area control effort of all three service branches, more or less the forerunner of the FJäger-Korps.

The regular MilitaryPolice was the Feldgendarmerie, which were recruited mainly from the civilian Police.

[Michael Dorosh]

I've had excellent teachers, Hof, you are one of them. I didn't realize FeldJäger was a historical term; thanks for the information - it would explain why it is in current use. Seemed odd that the Bundeswehr would choose to perpetuate the name of their "battle police" rather than the regular field police. Is there anything else you can tell me abuot the Feldjäger of old? Quite interesting to say the least, thanks again.

[Maple Tree]

Originally posted by newlife:

Hi,

I seem to recal something about Soviet doctrine having a second line of soldiers behind the first wave who would shoot anyone retreating. Is there any truth to this? Secondly, will it be modeled in CM? (Then again, it already is with most players aggresive play )

Pete

This is correct, particularly in the early part of the war. In fact, this was in vogue during the cold war.

See the new movie out about the Russian sniper, they use this concept.

As it pertains to CM2, it would not be in the programming.

Regards,

Maple

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JunoReactor:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I believe the current Bundeswehr military police are called Feldjäger, incidentally, rather than Feldgendarmerie....I am open to correction on that one.

I belive the reason is that "gendarmerie" is French.</font>

[Skipper]

Originally posted by SuperTed:

"...any soldier not willing to fight or on the retreat was shot by NKVD troops."

The above quote is from here.

That's one heck of a reference...

Here is a bit more accurate account.

To start with, none of the Red Army field regulations mentions this as a normal combat practice. Which means, it wasn't.

Special purpose blocking squads were established in summer 1942 and existed till some time in 1943. Organisationally, a blocking squad was an independent HMG platoon, manned by NKVD servicemen.

Mainly they worked as squad-sized block-posts on roads directly behind front lines. There are accounts when they were used like the thread originator said, behind assaulting penal batallions.

A report on blocking squads activities in the area of German summer '42 offensive says (again, from the top of my head) that something like 200+ thousand retreating soldiers were stopped and sent to the nearest assembly areas, about 10,000 were imprisoned, and something like 2,000 executed. This was very tough - the toughest blocking squads have ever been.

Also worth mentioning on the subject, RKKA officers from platoon commander and up had legal right to shoot their subordinate who refuses to execute a combat order. Using this right was not uncommon. I believe, it was same way in Wehrmacht.

[gatpr]

My Dad a Korean War vet says he witnessed an instance of an NCO shooting a fleeing GI in the midst of a Chinese assault. He says he honestly believed it kept his whole platoon from bugging out. He's also told me of instances of fragging officers. The chain dogs of the Feldgendarmerie did have an old tradition. Their gorgets were holdovers from the 15th century or so, sort of like the Curiassers of the French Army.

[Michael Dorosh]

Oh, and Hof, I finally got a quote - just today as a matter of fact - from a Waffen-SS veteran at Marcus Wendel's Third Reich Forum, that pertains to an earlier conversation you and I had here on the Forum. It confirms all the quotes you were able to provide me. To wit:

Hi Michael. Waffen SS "führers" (officers) no matter how high, were indeed addressed by their rank only, there was no "Herr' in front of it. In the Wehrmacht even a Gefreiter (corporal) had to be addressed as "Herr Gefreiter". Not so in the SS. Also not in the SA and H.J. . There was even an 'Unterführers" handbuch that spelled it out, to be taught to new recruits. I don't recall the name of it. Regards. HN.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Skipper:

Special purpose blocking squads were established in summer 1942 and existed till some time in 1943.

well, maybe these designated "blocking squads" were established later, and maybe there was no official SOP for the NKVD troops shooting deserters, but it is a fact that the NKVD acted as a de facto blocking force as early as 1941, when they even "blocked" civilians trying to flee. I saw a documentary once where both russian veterans and civilians told their stories, and there were several mentions of soviet civilians who told about the NKVD keeping them from fleeing Moscow, and one former NKVD sergeant confessed that they did indeed shoot civilians who aczed against the general order (the population had been told not to flee). He said they had to do that to prevent a general panic and rout among the civilian population.

[ February 22, 2002, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]

[M Hofbauer]

The historic Feldjäger date back to the prussian Frederick II. ("the Great"). In 1740 when he was mobilizing his army he ordered the establishment of a group of Feldjäger which was to assist in pathfinding/traffic control and in liasion duty as messengers. Because their mission required special loyalty to the King the Feldjäger were recruited from the King's own forest rangers / hunters ("Jäger"), hence the term "Jäger". I think "Feldjäger" was simply a rank among the King's hunters/ forest rangers, the next higher rank was Oberjäger. And the original Feldjäger group created by Friedrich II. consisted of a dozen Feldjäger led by one Oberjäger and his assistant. They proved very useful and were continually expanded, so that the whole "service branch" was called "Preußisches berittenes Feldjägerkorps" (prussian mounted Feldjägerkorps)

btw thanks for that other info on the formal address within WH and W-SS.

[Michael Dorosh]

Thanks for the info Hof. Just to bring this back on topic - I don't think Feldjäger should be modelled in CM any more than NKVD should. Really, any broken or panicked squad could be routed off the map - where the NKVD would be laying in wait, or the Feldjaeger or whomever - but this would likely not happen in CM's scope, and not in large numbers.

Having said that, going back off topic - another German vet confirmed for me that sergeants in the German Army were entitled to salutes from private soldiers (I assume this includes Gefreiten and Obergefreiten, who were officially Mannschaften and not Unteroffiziere). He was speaking of recruit training, but I wonder if you can tell me if this practice extended outside the barracks? How common would it be for a "private" to salute an NCO?

[Skipper]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Skipper:

Special purpose blocking squads were established in summer 1942 and existed till some time in 1943.

well, maybe these designated "blocking squads" were established later, and maybe there was no official SOP for the NKVD troops shooting deserters, but it is a fact that the NKVD acted as a de facto blocking force as early as 1941.</font>

[Iron Chef Sakai]

Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SuperTed:

"...any soldier not willing to fight or on the retreat was shot by NKVD troops."

The above quote is from here.

NKVD troops wore "green hats" as the regular Soviet troops called them. They lingered in the rear areas (away from the front line action) and would shoot anyone SUSPECTED of desersion. As a result, even troops given proper leave from their units on the front lines were anxious as they passed through NKVD checkpoints. :eek: </font>

[Iron Chef Sakai]

Originally posted by Skipper:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Skipper:

Special purpose blocking squads were established in summer 1942 and existed till some time in 1943.

well, maybe these designated "blocking squads" were established later, and maybe there was no official SOP for the NKVD troops shooting deserters, but it is a fact that the NKVD acted as a de facto blocking force as early as 1941.</font>

[Skipper]

Gee, a troll.

[ASL Veteran]

Well, you know that the Iron Chef always likes to jump in and add an insightful comment or two to most threads on the forum. His mastery of WW2 minutae is rather impressive - even Groglike on occasion.