Where's the rally point? Anywhere but CMBB!

[billcarey]

I've got a question about a feature that won't make it into CMBB (unless someone beat me to the punch and I missed it) but might be neat for some future game.

Rally Points. They would be purchasable like TRPs but possibly more expensive (30p?)

They would then be able to be placed in (and only in) the setup zone of the player. It might be sensible to code it up that only yellow setup zone guys can use a yellow Rally Point.

Panicked and Broken (and Routed?) troops would gravitate slowly towards the rally point (usually) and cautious, shaken, or alerted units could move towards the rally point at a reduced CNC delay.

So, the seven tests that I only sort of remember:

1. Historical? I'm not a military person, so I don't know. How common were rally points in set piece battles?

2. Common Enough? See #1.

3. Useful/Different? I think so. Would add to a defender's ability to build a second line of defense and keep his upper level COs from running around all willy nilly.

4. Codeable? Beats me.

So what do people think: are rally points a feature that would be worth having? Would you use them? Are they possible? How would you gamily expoit and break them?

Just thought I'd throw out the idea, 'cause I don't remember seeing it before.

- Bill

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by billcarey:

...are rally points a feature that would be worth having? Would you use them?

Yeah. Neat idea.

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

Staged withdrawals certainly had set points to withdraw to, not sure I've heard the term "rally point" before. I do know that prisoner and casualty collection points were set out as part of a company or battalion's orders before a set piece battle, and assume that the same was set up on the defence, though often company headquarters would double, say, as a PW collection area (as it was usually the company NCO (ie CSM, First Sergeant, Hauptfeldwebel or whatever you want to call him) that was in charge of PW collection.

The idea does have merit - would be nice to see the TacAI have broken units gravitating also more towards their HQ units, which also be the case in real life. I'm not sure they do this all that often in CMBO.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

...not sure I've heard the term "rally point" before.

I definitely have. In fact, I am certain that in the last year I was reading a handbook on infantry tactics that had lots of diagrams illustrating various kinds of platoon level attacks and defenses, and nearly each of these featured a rally point in case things went badly.

Michael

[xerxes]

Excellent idea, I'm not sure how the mechanics of it should work but it's a really good concept.

[Barrold]

While part of this functionality might be outside of the CM scope, there has been something close to it added to CM:BB

This was mentioned by one of the sneak peakers and is the addition of fall back positions available in the set-up phase.

I don't know if this is exactly what you were requesting, but in practice, I think this might work.

BDH

[Dirtweasle]

Oh my! Fall back positions, and the "Shoot and Scoot" command! This sound very good.

I'm not sure, but think the formal term "Rally Points" are a post WWII thing.

[Panzer Leader]

Originally posted by barrold713:

While part of this functionality might be outside of the CM scope, there has been something close to it added to CM:BB

This was mentioned by one of the sneak peakers and is the addition of fall back positions available in the set-up phase.

I don't know if this is exactly what you were requesting, but in practice, I think this might work.

BDH

The way I understood it, was that rather than having to split squads (to get the fox-holes) then reform them once the game starts, you are somehow able to create two sets from the get-go, without that work-around. Does that sound right?

Also, the above is only a position, it does not (it seems to me) affect TacAI at all.

[Barrold]

That is the way it seemed to work to me. As far as the TAC-AI, I did not notice it reacting to the fallback positions by specifically sending routed or panic stricken units there. So unless I am missing something or there is a feature added that I am clueless about, I am inclined to say that they just eliminate the need to split squads during set-up.

The scenario I played in which this was shown to us was not really taken to the point where we had to withdraw to the secondary line. Conceptually, one could tell that this added flexibility in the setup could lead to some interesting defensive options. More proficient brains than mine will no doubt be providing tutorials on the new modes of defense after the game is released so I'll conceal my ignorance for now.

As an aside, it does seems logical to me that this would be controlled manually in keeping with the general spirit of the game. Units running away through a rout are supposed to be out of control and not rational enough in this state to mosey back to the designated area.

Once they regain their composure and you can issue them commands, they can be ordered to the secondary positions where they can further recover in nice cozy foxholes.

BDH

[Andreas]

Hmm, I would have thought the 'friendly map edge' is just that, since the 'rally point' (which is for girls anyway, if it is not on or beyond the objective) is most likely off-map.

[Lah]

I would like to be able to withdraw crews off map without any negative global morale effects. It seems unrealistic leaving them all at the back map edge.

[Moon]

Popping in quickly to say: Andreas is correct. Routed units move towards one of their friendly map edges. Something to think about next time you scenario designers decide to put the firendly map edge opposite of the setup area to make the AI more aggressive...

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Moon:

Something to think about next time you scenario designers decide to put the firendly map edge opposite of the setup area to make the AI more aggressive...

Hehe - or you could see this as one way to simulate the NKVD blocking detachment or the SS Death Squad...

Originally posted by Moon:

Andreas is correct.

Heh, can I have that in writing? Oh, I already do... Now there are only Charles, Dan and Matt left who have to say it, and then all will tremble before the weight of my knowledge...

[Ozzy]

I agree with Andreas. In most cases the time required to reorganize a routed unit is beyond an average battle timeframe (60-90 minutes).

Other than for operations, but for that you won't need the rally point.

Running to the friendly edge is sufficent IMO.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Ozzy:

I agree with Andreas. In most cases the time required to reorganize a routed unit is beyond an average battle timeframe (60-90 minutes).

Other than for operations, but for that you won't need the rally point.

Running to the friendly edge is sufficent IMO.

I think we need to know whether the "rally point" is intended to represent what in British lingo would be called an RV (for RendezVous), or if it is meant to be a straggler line.

RVs are very common, right down to section level, and should cost nothing -- all that happens is that the relevant commander says "The platoon RV will be at Home Farm" when giving his orders, or, as a section is advancing, the corporal will at intervals signal that a particular point is now the section RV as he passes it. If the section has a messy contact, everyone will rally back to the last RV.

A straggler line is a rather more elaborate affair, for higher organisations, and might be manned by MPs, or, in other armies, Feldpolizei or Blocking Detachments.

While I would like to see control measures like this represented in a game, CM might not be the game to do it in if (like Kip Anderson) one does not want it to become a "command game". Personally, I would love to have a game where I directly manipulate RVs, start lines, phase lines, report lines, objectives, boundaries and all the rest of it. It occurs to me that the structure of prior command decisions represented by these control measures would make it easier to code believeable behaviours for the TacAI, too. Such a game would not be CM as we knmow and love it, though.

All the best,

John.

[Andreas]

John, that would indeed be a departure. The way I understood this was something along the line of what Mellenthin described, where German soldiers rallied at their field kitchens if the proverbial had hit the fan. His line that the Red Army did not have field kitchens, and that therefore the Red Army soldiers were more committed to the attack, since they had no obvious rally point, is certainly 'interesting'. *cough* *cough*

I agree that since you currently control everyone down to Section level you won't need the RV. You order it when needed as commander. The other one is outside the scope, and best represented by the friendly map edge.

[Bruno Weiss]

This was mentioned by one of the sneak peakers and is the addition of fall back positions available in the set-up phase.

Moriarty is gonna love this!

[ July 19, 2002, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ozzy:

I agree with Andreas. In most cases the time required to reorganize a routed unit is beyond an average battle timeframe (60-90 minutes).

Other than for operations, but for that you won't need the rally point.

Running to the friendly edge is sufficent IMO.

I think we need to know whether the "rally point" is intended to represent what in British lingo would be called an RV (for RendezVous), or if it is meant to be a straggler line.

RVs are very common, right down to section level, and should cost nothing -- all that happens is that the relevant commander says "The platoon RV will be at Home Farm" when giving his orders, or, as a section is advancing, the corporal will at intervals signal that a particular point is now the section RV as he passes it. If the section has a messy contact, everyone will rally back to the last RV.

A straggler line is a rather more elaborate affair, for higher organisations, and might be manned by MPs, or, in other armies, Feldpolizei or Blocking Detachments.

While I would like to see control measures like this represented in a game, CM might not be the game to do it in if (like Kip Anderson) one does not want it to become a "command game". Personally, I would love to have a game where I directly manipulate RVs, start lines, phase lines, report lines, objectives, boundaries and all the rest of it. It occurs to me that the structure of prior command decisions represented by these control measures would make it easier to code believeable behaviours for the TacAI, too. Such a game would not be CM as we knmow and love it, though.

All the best,

John.</font>

[Marlow]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

I think we need to know whether the "rally point" is intended to represent what in British lingo would be called an RV (for RendezVous), or if it is meant to be a straggler line.

RVs are very common, right down to section level, and should cost nothing -- all that happens is that the relevant commander says "The platoon RV will be at Home Farm" when giving his orders, or, as a section is advancing, the corporal will at intervals signal that a particular point is now the section RV as he passes it. If the section has a messy contact, everyone will rally back to the last RV.

This is the same as the rally point as it is used in the modern U.S. Army. I have no idea if WWII infantrymen used it. Like the RV, a rally point is givin with the orders, and new ones are designated periodically during movement by the unit leader.

[Michael Dorosh]

If nothing else, the addition of phase lines could be used as a more realistic victory condition than the current flags - ie clearing all unbroken enemy units with a LOS to (or within effective weapons range of) phase line A, B, etc would garner x number of victory points.

To be truly realistic, of course, the enemy player would not be able to see the phase line or know what your objective was.

This can be done to a point with dynamic flags.

[ July 19, 2002, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[JMcGuire]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

RVs are very common, right down to section level, and should cost nothing -- all that happens is that the relevant commander says "The platoon RV will be at Home Farm"

Yeah, we know all about those "platoon RV's"...

[Alsatian]

Can't find "Rallying Point" reference for WWII infantry, but I found use of the term regarding US armor attack tactics.

From: Limpus, Lowell M., "How the Army Fights," (New York: Appleton Century) 1943:

[This might be a long transcription. Skip to the end to find the "Rallying Point" bit. Keep in mind, this was written contemporary to WWII and meant for the general public. The italics are the author's.]

"The fire fight takes place as soon as the enemy fire becomes heavy enough to endanger the advance. Then the tanks stop to shoot it out with the foe. They do so in sections--one group stopping behind the best cover available to fire at the enemy, while another charges forward to the next cover, there to pause and take up the fire fight in its turn.

"The assault is launched when the first wave gets to within 200 to 400 yards of the enemy. Then, at a signal from the commander, the whole line thunders forward at top speed, firing every gun that can be brought to bear. The assault guns and mortars, it will be remembered, are right behind them. And now the tanks endeavor to ride right over the enemy and crush him.

"The next move is the consolidation of positions, which is the task of the armored infantry and tank destroyer units. The infantry, which may have made the origianl attack, if it was against a prepared position, comes rolling up in armor-plated personnel carriers, springs out, and goes into action with rifles, machine-guns, mortars, and bayonets and grenades if necessary. Anti-tank guns my be brought forward, too. And they hold the captured ground while the tanks reorganize.

"Under the protection of the other units, the tanks charge on to the rallying points, which have been indicated in advance. There the reorganization takes place--and it includes hasty repairs and refueling if there is sufficient time to do so. First aid is also rendered by the medical men, as described in a later chpater, and the seriously wounded are evacuated."

Vintage is quaint, ain't it?

[Doug Beman]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Moon:

Andreas is correct.

Heh, can I have that in writing? Oh, I already do... Now there are only Charles, Dan and Matt left who have to say it, and then all will tremble before the weight of my knowledge...[/QB]</font>

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Doug Beman:

[As opposed to the floor trembling before the weight of the half-dozen cheeseburgers you eat every day?

DjB {on his way to jump back in the 'pool}

What's a cheeseburger?

[Doug Beman]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Doug Beman:

[As opposed to the floor trembling before the weight of the half-dozen cheeseburgers you eat every day?

DjB {on his way to jump back in the 'pool}

What's a cheeseburger?</font>