Gryphon Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 Hello there, I read somewhere that there was a "2nd SS Fallschirmjäger Abteilung 500" (2. SS FALL. JAG. ABT. 500) in action, but i thought Fallschirmjäger were units by themselves, not part of any of the major formations (ie. SS & Heer) could someone please clarify this matter for me? Thanks in advance, Gryphon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 The jallschirmjager were part of the Luftwaffe. In the early days, there were Fallschirmjager in both the Luftwaffe and the Herr, but the Fallschirm-Infanterie Bataillon was folded into the Luftwaffe in 1936 ot 38 (can't remember which). Not to be outdone, Himmler had to have his own Fallschirmjager... thus the SS Fallschirmjager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 Originally posted by Berlichtingen: In the early days, there were Fallschirmjager in both the Luftwaffe and the Herr...Could you expand on that statement a bit Berli? Like, how early are we talking about? I never heard of the Heer having paratroops, though there was of course the 22nd. Airlanding division, but so far as I know they tried to avoid jumping out of airplanes until they had come to a complete stop. So fill me in please. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 Originally posted by Michael emrys: Could you expand on that statement a bit Berli?The initial Fallschirmjäger were formed by Göring as part of the Prussian Landespolizei... so the started life as part of a para-military police force (Para cops ). When the Landespolizei were transered to the Herr, Göring retained control of the Landespoliziegruppe General Göring. In 1935 they were transfered to the Luftwaffe as 1. Bataillon, Regiment 'General Göring'. That was the Luftwaffe's initial Fallschirmjäger battalion. By 1937 the Herr had formed the Fallschirm-Infanterie-Kompanie. Early in 1937, the Luftwaffe battalion and the Herr company did a demonstration jump for Hitler which impressed him... which led to the expansion of the Herr company to battalion strength (completed in early 1938 IIRC). for Case Green (annexation of Czechoslovakia), the 7. Flieger-Division was formed under Kurt Student. It consisted of I./1.FJR (Luftwaffe), Air Landing Battalion 'Regiment General Göring' and the Herr Fallscirm-Infanterie-Bataillon (under Major Heidrich). It wasn't until 1 January 1939 that Heidrich's battalion was transfered to the Luftwaffe. So the Herr had Fallschirmjäger for about 2 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 Originally posted by Berlichtingen: (Para cops ).Wow. Bummer: Ker-plunk. "Hands up! You're busted!" :eek: Thanks for the rest. I was previously unaware of all that. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 Speaking of odd units; Don't forget the 12th SS Fallshirmpanzerdivision Hermann Göring. Some halfbreed between FJ and Panzer division. AFAIK it never performed any airborne operations, but there was a theoretical possibility that it could. The problem was that Me321, the giant gliders that could take a PzKw IV or 200 combat equipped soldiers, were too easy to shoot down. Originally posted by Berlichtingen: ... the Herr, ...Funny error; Herr = Mister, Heer = Army. Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 Originally posted by Olle Petersson: ...Me321, the giant gliders that could take a PzKw IV...Are you sure it would fly with a PzKw IV? I don't have the numbers right in front of me at the moment, but I remember working it out about fifteen years ago and deciding it couldn't haul anything heavier than a PzKw II. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 I remember seeing something on the History Channel about the glider, it was towed by two JU-52s, and I do remember seeing them loading a PzKw II on board, not a Mark IV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 I'm thinking now that it might have been two HE-111s not JU-52s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pakfan Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 The Me-321 was in 1941 towed by 3 BF-110s ("Troikaschlepp"), later by a single He-111Z Zwilling (the glider had some auxiliary thrusters to make a take-off easier). With its max. capacity of 39,500 kg it might be able to lift a 23,5 ton Pz IV - but I'm not sure if that has been done. I'll take a look at some books, maybe I'll find something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illo Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 ...seems like SdKfz 7 with 8.8cm FlaK. Marder II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 A full platoon of 88s (presumably w/o the prime movers), 130 fully armed infantrymen, 60 wounded, or 52 250l barrels of fuel is the data I have in another book on the motorised variant, the Me 323/D-2. I doubt it could take a Panzer IV, just from looking at the front opening. Funnily, the picture I have shows lots of horses being unloaded. Are plane-borne cavalry paratroopers modelled in CMBB? I am not allowed to tell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 Illo, that is not an 88, looks like either a 10cm Kanone 18 or a 15cm sFH18 (I think these used the same carriage, so they are difficult to tell apart). Hmm, checking my sources it does not get any easier, but I am inclined to go for the 10cm Kanone 18. Any arty grog out there who can answer for certain? [ July 29, 2002, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 Originally posted by pakfan: With its max. capacity of 39,500 kg it might be able to lift a 23,5 ton Pz IV.Yup! It had some floor reinforcements available for that purpose. For troop transport they added an extra floor, to provide two floor seating for 200 men. The pics provided by illo show the motorised version, Me323, that had considerably less transport capacity. 130 men or 18 tons IIRC. Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: ...I am inclined to go for the 10cm Kanone 18.I am inclined to agree with you. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Originally posted by pakfan: With its max. capacity of 39,500 kg it might be able to lift a 23,5 ton Pz IV - but I'm not sure if that has been done. I'll take a look at some books, maybe I'll find something.Err, are you sure about that payload? All I could find indicates it was more like 20,000 kg for the glider and a lot less for the 323 variety. Also, unless the 323 had a smaller door, I think you would struggle fitting a Mark IV in through it. Then again, I am no expert on this stuff, so feel free to ignore me. Michael, thanks for that. Difficult to make out if one can not see the whole barrel. Ahh, the 10cm Kanone 18, vanquisher of the KV at Rossienie, and stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Originally posted by Olle Petersson: 12th SS Fallshirmpanzerdivision Hermann Göring. Some halfbreed between FJ and Panzer division.12th SS was the 'Hitler Jugend' and had nothing to do with the 'Hermann Göring' Fallschirm-Panzer Division. The 'Fallschirm' was pure honorific... it was never intended to be used in an airborne role. the Hermann Göring was a beefed up Panzer Division much like the Grossdeutschland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Here's a stupid question: Why the hell did Goring feel the need to field a very well equipped Luftwaffe Panzer Div.? Surely the Heer and Waffen SS could have used the armor... Now, to its credit, I did hear this Luftwaffe Pz.Div. fought well in Italy. But still, the Heer and Waffen SS fight enough among themselves for gear. Don't need the Luftwaffe to get into the scrap also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Originally posted by Warmaker: Here's a stupid question: Why the hell did Goring feel the need to field a very well equipped Luftwaffe Panzer Div.? Surely the Heer and Waffen SS could have used the armor...Prestige mostly. Hermann wanted to show off again. ...the Heer and Waffen SS fight enough among themselves for gear. Don't need the Luftwaffe to get into the scrap also.Absolutely. Couldn't have done anything to make the logistics networks function more smoothly. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Murray Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 If I remember my history correctly there was an SS Fallschirmjaeger battalion. 501 ( later renumbered 600 ). Took part in the unsuccessful raid on Tito's HQ in Drvar in 1944. Later posted to the Eastern front where it was pretty much wiped out. Was led by a Haupsturmfuehrer Kurt Rybka - don't know what happened to him. You can find out more about the battalion's uniforms in the excellent book " Camouflage Uniforms of The Waffen SS " by Beaver & Borsarello - published by Schiffer Books - came out in 1995 so it might be out of print by now. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by pakfan: With its max. capacity of 39,500 kg ...Err, are you sure about that payload? All I could find indicates it was more like 20,000 kg for the glider and a lot less for the 323 variety. Also, unless the 323 had a smaller door, I think you would struggle fitting a Mark IV in through it. ...</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 Originally posted by illo: Well, I pulled out my Chamberlain and Gander and looking at the photos and reading the specs, the leading nominees are: 1. The schwere 10cm Kanone 18 (which is actually 10.5cm in caliber). 2. The 15cm schwere Feldhaubitze 18. Outside chance contenders are: 3. The 15cm Kanone 18. 4. The 15cm Kanone 39. 5. The 10.5cm schwere Kanone 18/40. It's really not possible to make a definite choice based solely on the evidence of the photograph given here. 1 & 2 definitely shared the same carriage; the main way to distinguish them would be the noticeably longer barrel on the 10cm Kanone, but we can't make that out in the photo. However, It seems that the breach and barrel of the 15cm Haubitze are heavier looking, so my money is still on the 10cm. The last three have recuperators and equilibriators similar in appearance to the first two, but details of the trails seem to differ, although the photos I have are far from conclusive. I think it unlikely for them to be the piece in the picture as they were normally broken down into two or more loads for transport. BTW, my guess is the tractor in the pic is probably a SdKz 8 rather a 7. I don't think the 7 was powerful enough to lug around such a heavy piece. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 Mike, good digging. My money would be on the 10cm Kanone because of the seemingly longer thick part of the barrel at the rear. Also, the 15cm sFH18 had the barrel retracted for transport. But it is probably not possible to tell. I'll post comparison pictures here in the next few days. Regarding the prime mover, confusingly the 'mittlerer Zugkraftwagen 8' was called 'Sdkfz.7', and it seems to have been the standard prime mover for both 15cm sFH18 and 10cm Kanone 18. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: Regarding the prime mover, confusingly the 'mittlerer Zugkraftwagen 8' was called 'Sdkfz.7', and it seems to have been the standard prime mover for both 15cm sFH18 and 10cm Kanone 18.Oh. That must be where I heard it from then. Maybe I'll do a spot more digging...if I can find the energy. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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