Biltong's Campaign Rules - Cont.

[Biltong]

Scalpel wrote some months ago?

"I would really like to get some vehicle transport for my scrounged units."

Feedback?

AND FORGET ABOUT TANKS!!

[ December 14, 2002, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[Apache]

My mistake folks, trouble of trying to do things when you're feeling a bit rough/tired. Auto parameter sheet 1.4 does seem to generate Allid Attacks etc OK. I'd forgotten to change the date in the 2nd lot of date boxes

[Quasimofo]

I am using Quattro Pro Spreadsheet, so I don't know if this is a Quattro specifc problem.

Regarding Max's Auto Parameter v1.4 program, several of the month modifier's on the battle parameter sheet were locked into the June modifier. For example, I would set the battle month to December and keep getting hot days, no frozen or cold days. The modifier would always read -4 in cell V64, though for December temperature modifier is +4.

I managed to write a formula to get it to read the correct month modifier, but I don't know what formula to use to get it to read the month AND specific week modifier on the parameter calcs sheet.

The cells which are having problems are V42, V43, V44, V47, V52, V53, V60 and V64. The boxes are red, and when you look at the cell properties dialog box, only a value is displayed, unlike the other modifier cells which display their formulas.

This would also explain Apache's battle problem in December as posted earlier. The modifier for that cell is reading June's modifier (-4), though the month is set to December (-1).

[ December 14, 2002, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Quasimofo ]

[Max BrauHaus]

Quasimofo,

That may be a conversion problem. In Excel, the formula being used is HLOOKUP, which allows me to lookup from an array of dates using the month (L24) and week (L23).

I don't know if there is an equivalent in Quattro - never used it. If the cell value is a number and not a formula, then Quattro may have just set the value to what the Excel formula evaluated to when you converted it.

Hopefully some other auto parameter programs on the horizon will be less tied to a program or platform.

Everyone - make sure you are changing L22, L23, and L24 to the date of the next battle. The other dates are for the previous battle only and do not affect any parameters except the next possible date.

[Biltong]

Effect of Replacements on Exp Gain

Scalpel picked this one up fast TG... It had the potential of bringing all our games to a halt after 10? or so battles... We better solve it.

He states the problem as:

1. Currently the player has little hope (or motivation) of ever having troops better than the replacement level. The higher the current point value of the unit above the replacement norm, the farther it drops when substitutes show up to fill in for casualties (and there will be bodies). And

2. If the existing unit is of lower quality than the replacements, then the commander has a strong incentive to kill off those troops to get the higher quality newbies.

I spent some time looking at Scalpels suggestion posted above, but I have a number of concerns:

1. Main Concern: (56) Replacement Exp modifiers: Date; Company CO Exp. and esp.: FAVOR negated except in the case of Total Casualty State.

2. 2nd Concern: Bit complicated and long to explain to newbies. Will need another Note and some spreadsheet work at least? Also:

3. Have to bring in ‘Half ways’ of exp levels

4. Need to calc 1/3 & 1/2 of each unit strength which has casualties (plus rounding)

5. 56 Normal Replacement Exp must still be calculated for Total Casualty State – it is not as if the new calcs will replace it

Possible alternate Solutions

1. Increase Overall Exp Gain to 2 (don’t like this much – feels like a step back?)

2. Modify Note 3 Experience Calc to soften effect of replacements – math wizzes?

3. Prevent homicidal CO’s through Favor loss – Heavy penalties for

· Overall % casualties

· No of Squads/teams wiped out

4. Slowly reduce quality of replacements through the year from Sept onwards up to Dec when average = 20% Vets + 20% Regulars (returning or posted to the front); rest: 60% Green. I think from what I read in the Grog mails that this was close to reality in any case.

So – maybe I was going arse about face… 1st we have to plan the replacements for the war as a whole, e.g.:

Chances Replacement Quality:

· June 41 10% Vet; 60% Reg; 30% Green;

· End 41 20% Vet; 20% Reg; 60% Green;

· End 42 10% Vet; 10% Reg; 50% Green; 30% Con

· End 43 10% Vet; 10% Reg; 40% Green; 40% Con

· End 44 5% Vet; 5% Reg; 30% Green; 60% Con

· End War 5% Vet; 5% Reg; 20% Green; 70% Con

This slow reduction in replacement quality + Favor penalties should curtail the homicidal CO. (problem 2)

As for Scalpels problem no 1 – Wasn’t that what happened anyway: Replacements dragging a squad’s quality down - through all the wars, through all the centuries?

But maybe one of the math wizzes can come up with an easy formula to reduce this effect?

Feedback guys, please – lets kill the little bugger .

[Apache]

Looking at some of the e-mail replies we've had, and given that some amended rules could be created to progress on from Dec 41, would it not be better to start the whole experience of force and replacements off closer to the way it was in reality. E.g. with higher quality troops and replacements almost up to the end of the first set of campaign rules? I think the above is better but still wonder if we're over diluting the Axis forces too soon. 40-60% vet at first perhaps? Perhps the core needs to start at regular at least too, maybe even Vet?

One problem could be the easier games people face going up against depleted Soviet forces and partisans with Vet/Crack troops but is that not what happened? Are we not getting the whole thing back to front? Better perhaps to start with higher quality and gradually wind down with your unit getting weaker and weaker troops replacing the losses (a real incentive to keep your guys alive). Also, if you keep your CO he will doubtles get better and better, getting more and more favour while having the frustration of getting low quality replacements esp by 42/3. That way, newcomers will be eased into the rules and perhaps the game easier, getting the hang of it without having to contend with a green Axis force and poor quality replacements right at the start. They would have to later on of course, esp BCR2. My general view is starting to come round to the thought that initial battles perhaps ought to some extent be a bit like a hot knife going through butter. Just a thought.

[ December 14, 2002, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[History Buff]

I just got a simple question.

How do I manage replacements? After each battle I win do I immedeatly have a full company of new troops intermixed with my old ones? I'm having real probs with this section.

Plus does anyone know if it is possible to change individual squads experience in a Quick Battle? How do you do it?

Thanks all for this great innovation

[Ichthys]

I am concerned that the newest proposals are making it too difficult to gain experience. The idea that 'moderate' casulties (1-4 men in a typical squad) means that the unit gains no experience seems counter-intuitive to me. Throw in the fact that in winter months you're guaranteed to have somewhat significant losses due to casualties QB setting, and your starting off the battle knowing none of your units are likely to gain experience from it.

I'm wondering if we are placing too much importance on the experience of the individuals, the formulas we're using are simply creating an experience equal to the average of the individuals. It seems to me that group dynamics don't work that way. A units effectiveness has much to do with it's historical reputation even if none of the current members of the group actually took part in those historical events. Simply by becoming a member of a unit, an individual will tend to behave as members of that unit are expected to behave, whether good or bad. Can this be simulated in the campaign system (do we even want to)? I think a way to achieve this would be to weight the experience of the surviving members of the unit more than the newcomers, the exact ratio would need to be determined by trial and error (I'd start at 3:1). So for a 10 man squad receiving 2 new replacements the formula would be:

new experience = (3*8*old_experience + 2*new_experience)/(3*8+2). Perhaps this would slow down the 'replacement dilution factor' enough to make experience gain a realistic goal and not just a mirror of the quality of replacments.

-Andy

[Biltong]

The Scalpel mailed me the following (trust him to go for the crux)

“… what is the purpose of this campaign? Is it simply enduring the approximately 200 battles the campaign creates in the four years of war on the Eastern front? Is it to have a higher quality force at the end than historical trends allow? Should the player aspire to Battalion level command? Keep more Germans alive than happened in reality?

Win more battles than other campaigners? What is the ultimate goal we set for ourselves in this simulation? The rules generate the environment for the player to work in, but what is that person trying to accomplish within this framework….”

The goal has always been in the back of my mind, and I’ve stated some portions of it before, but never formally – so here goes:

BCR’s Goal is to:

1. Enable players to play a Campaign from June 41 through all of the CMBB terrain until the final day of battle in Berlin.

2. Make sure that the Campaign never becomes Boring – the difficulty must increase, it must be varied and the Campaign must end in a climax.

3. Keep the Campaign as Historically accurate as possible.

4. Keep it short and simple enough to allow most players to understand and use it.

5. Enable anyone to Expand or Modify BCR to his own taste.

6. Provide Excitement, Tension and just good old-fashioned Fun!

BCR is just for yourself… the battle is between yourself and an enemy who grows stronger every year… You will have to become a better commander for you and your men to survive till the end.

Obviously we still have to do the other years and fronts, but, as for the main rules - I think we're 90% there. Some fine-tuning to be done - quite a bit of fine-tuning But BCR's up and running.

Thanx to all of you!!

Biltong

[Apache]

I certainly think that 2 and 3 will be enhanced by providing higher quality Axis troops at the start, gradually diluting the force as the campaign goes on, serving to both make the game harder and add some degree of historical accuracy.

I do wonder though whether the whole experience thing can/should be made a whole lot easier. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem doing what we do but can it be done easier, given what the final result would be (e.g. a green, regular, vet etc core and/or Aux). If CMBB allowed varied platoon experience within companies I could definitely see the point but I wonder whether some knind of combination of timing, company casualties linked to the CMBB results screen may make it a lot easier and quicker. FWIW I know of quite a few people who find the rules appealing but find the post battle scoring too onerous to tempt them to try the rules.

[Biltong]

Ok guys – got what I wanted

Experience Gain – Replacements Solution (for now)

From the posts above and e-mails received I’ve taken the following:

1. Apache

“Better perhaps to start with higher quality and gradually wind down with your unit getting weaker and weaker troops replacing the losses”

2. Andy

… weight the experience of the surviving members of the unit more than the newcomers,

new experience = (3*8*old_experience + *new_experience)/(3*8+2)

3.Myself

1st we have to plan the replacements for the war as a whole…

So:

1. Start Battle Group off as Regular

2. Note 3 – Experience Calculation

(Men left x 2 x Experience After Battle*) + (Replacements x Experience**) divided by (total men in unit x 2) = After Replacement Experience* for unit.

Round up from (and including) '.5' E.g.: 6.5 will be 7 and 3.49 equals 3.

* See Battle Group Sheet; **As determined in (56) Normal Replacements.

3. Axis Replacement Experience for East Front

· June 41 10% Vet; 60% Reg; 30% Green;

· End 41 20% Vet; 30% Reg; 50% Green;

· End 42 15% Vet; 20% Reg; 45% Green; 20% Con

· End 43 10% Vet; 10% Reg; 40% Green; 40% Con

· End 44 5% Vet; 5% Reg; 30% Green; 60% Con

· End War 5% Vet; 5% Reg; 20% Green; 70% Con

Notes

I diluted Andy’s formula from 3 to 2 loading for survivors. We are in uncharted territory here and this might (more than likely) need adjustment once we have 20 or so battles behind us.

BTW – Please hold onto your paperwork – In time we might need all players to give us some feedback on their results for ‘fine’-fine tuning.

Thanx guys – your feedback really makes my life easy

BTW – talking about feedback…

Some of you might feel that you don’t know enough; might be wrong and get shot down… that you’re ideas are vague/incorrect/unsubstantiated etc…

Please! ALL FEEDBACK IS WANTED & NEEDED… even if wrong it still stimulates though and discussion. Without feedback BCR would be a dead duck.

Next: FAVOR

Biltong

[ December 15, 2002, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[Apache]

I know this is/was on the list (too busy doing lunch to read now) but I think the random rolled major action event every now and then (where your core spearheads/supports)involving perhaps anything from just 2-3 more companies of infantry to a full scale combined arms assault with tanks/TDs (the works) will add to the excitement and break up too much company versus company level actions.

[SuperSulo]

I have been busy during the last few days, haven't been able to play a single battle , but I'm glad the experience situation seems to have been fixed (again ).

Some random things/thoughts:

Favor is up on the table again, right? I think I've made some mistake in my campaign, I have 503 favor points after 5 battles! All thanks to the "Prisoner(s) Theraft 2x" part. When the enemy surrenders, you get A LOT of prisoners, and the favor skyrockets.

Regarding "the meaning of BCR", I think that is pretty clear now. Anyhow, in my mind there are two possible ways to deal with campaigns:

1. Historic approach. You start with veteran/crack units and end up in Berlin with conscripts. No matter what you do, win or lose every single battle, this will be the case. (BCR pretty much belong to this category).

2. What-if/The Game approach. Start with conscript/green units, work your way up to crack. Where the end battle will take place depends on your progress, play so-so, end up in Berlin, win every battle, end up winning in Stalingrad/Moscow/whatever and win the whole war.

I think most of the people here find the second version a horrible thing, but I wouldn't mind playing such a campaign. I'm weird that way.

[Max BrauHaus]

I don't think you are doing anything wrong (quite the contrary if you are capturing so many prisoners, you must be doing something very right!)

And the Favor system may not reward too many points, but maybe it is too cheap to use the Favor to improve future battles.

What I am saying is that we need to look at the balance of how many Favor points we receive, and the "cost" of using that Favor. If after one battle (in which I had only minimal success) I can use Favor with my CO to have him delay the next battle, I think that is a little unbalanced. I should have to show by repetition that my decision should be trusted - basically, I should have to fight a few winning battles to have enough Favor to adjust certain things.

Now to determine which things, how much, and how long. All of the easy stuff.

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Apache:

I know this is/was on the list (too busy doing lunch to read now) but I think the random rolled major action event every now and then (where your core spearheads/supports)involving perhaps anything from just 2-3 more companies of infantry to a full scale combined arms assault with tanks/TDs (the works) will add to the excitement and break up too much company versus company level actions.

Still on the list, Apache - I don't take things off it

Check the Update doc

As I remember it's quite high up, but 1st things first

Biltong

[ December 15, 2002, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[Biltong]

Originally posted by SuperSulo:

...

2. What-if/The Game approach. Start with conscript/green units, work your way up to crack. Where the end battle will take place depends on your progress, play so-so, end up in Berlin, win every battle, end up winning in Stalingrad/Moscow/whatever and win the whole war.

I think most of the people here find the second version a horrible thing, but I wouldn't mind playing such a campaign. I'm weird that way.

To be honest - I wouldn't mind playing one like that myself

It wouldn't take much to modify BCR to do that...

Once BCR has settled down someone might volunteer

Excessive prisoner favor noted

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Max BrauHaus:

[QB]... maybe it is too cheap to use the Favor to improve future battles.

What I am saying is that we need to look at the balance of how many Favor points we receive, and the "cost" of using that Favor. If after one battle (in which I had only minimal success) I can use Favor with my CO to have him delay the next battle, I think that is a little unbalanced. I should have to show by repetition that my decision should be trusted - basically, I should have to fight a few winning battles to have enough Favor to adjust certain things...QB]

Good points!!

I've got 6 pages (smallprint) of Favor feedback already... My main problem is that my spellchecker says it's Favour and not Favor...

The rest should be easy...

[Biltong]

Busy fixing Normal Replacements in the rules and refined the Replacement Exp a bit more:

Axis Replacement Experience for East Front

· June 41..... 10% Vet; 60% Reg; 30% Green;

. Sept 41..... 30% Vet; 40% Reg; 30% Green;

· End 41...... 20% Vet; 30% Reg; 50% Green;

· Summer 42 30% Vet; 30% Reg; 30% Green; 10% Con

· End 42...... 20% Vet; 20% Reg; 50% Green; 20% Con

· Summer 43 20% Vet; 20% Reg; 30% Green; 30% Con

· End 43...... 10% Vet; 10% Reg; 40% Green; 40% Con

. Summer 44 10% Vet; 10% Reg; 30% Green; 50% Con

· End 44...... 10% Vet; 10% Reg; 20% Green; 60% Con

· End War..... 0% Vet; 10% Reg; 20% Green; 70% Con

As we get more accurate info on replacements, these will obviously change, but at least we have something in place and I'll be surprised if it's way off...

BTW - It's not as if you'll be facing just Crack Soviets towards the end either...

A grog send me this:

"A couple of things you might want to keep in mind here. One is that the German troops in the last stages were not uniformly miserable. Some of them were highly experienced veterans with plenty of fight still left in them. After all, I think the Reds lost 200,000 dead in the battle for Berlin. Also, the Soviets were having their own problems with troop numbers and quality. While there was more training after the first months of '42, they also began suffering manpower shortages after mid-'43. By the end of the war, they like everybody else, were scraping the bottom of the manpower barrel. A lot of their troops didn't even speak Russian. They were taken from the non-Russian republics and there seem to have been disciplinary problems with them. They have been described in places as no more than an armed mob, but how much of that is racism/cultural chauvanism I can't tell. Proceed with caution."

So it might end up Conscript Axis vs Conscript/Reg Soviet mix with some Regulars/Vets and a Crack or 2 mixed in on both sides!! Sounds bloody We've got at least a year or 2 to come up with a 'good' climax!!

Biltong

[ December 15, 2002, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[Biltong]

Originally posted by History Buff:

...How do I manage replacements? After each battle I win do I immedeatly have a full company of new troops intermixed with my old ones? I'm having real probs with this section.

Thanks all for this great innovation

First - make sure you have the latest rules v1.4

I Assume you did not have an immediate attack or a counter attack. In that case your original company will receive replacements to 'fill up' the depleted squads - This is what happens in (56) Normal Replacements:

"After each battle the Battle Group (including Scrounged Units) get replacements, except when there is a Counter or Immediate Attack."

You roll a die to obtain the Experience for your replacements. This Experience is then used in Note 3 Experience Calculation - where the new experience for the replenished squad is calculated. This is filled in on the Battle Group Sheet in the collumn: After Replacement (Exp)for each HQ/Squad/team etc.

When you start your next battle you will fill this same exp in the collumn 'Exp Before Battle' on the new Battle Group Sheet.

Plus does anyone know if it is possible to change individual squads experience in a Quick Battle? How do you do it?

Note 7 - Generating the Real Battle:

"Unfortunately you won't be able to buy the squads/HQ's etc. in your Inf. Company at different Experience Settings, so you have to average the Experience for the Company. Add up the experience of each Co unit: HQ/Squad/team and divide by number of units."

Give it another try - we are working on making things clearer... If you have more questions - post, someone will answer

Biltong

[ December 15, 2002, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[Max BrauHaus]

I had a "BCR Experience" today that you wouldn't normally have in a standard 30+ QB.

I rolled a 40+ ME that the Soviets just wouldn't give up on. They streamed down Manstien's dry riverbed in the Fork and I beat them back with arty and MGs. I moved up and took the VL, but by turn 35 was basically out of ammo. By turn 40 the Soviets were encroaching again, and the battle eventually extended out to 49 turns.

From turns 25 to 42 I had firm control of the major VL, and would have ended with a Major Victory. 43 to 47 or so it would have been contested, but still could have been a Major Victory (I caused many casualties). At turn 49 the Soviets had beaten back my ammo-less men and they took the VL, leaving me with only a Tactical Victory.

Lets see a standard 30+ QB out of the box result in that kind of swing.

Cheers!

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Max BrauHaus:

I had a "BCR Experience" ...!

[86smopuim]

I modified Biltons Parameters SpreadSheet some more.

I am making it (near)full auto.

Its quite nice now. It even figures out favor for you.

Suprised no-ones interested.

[Biltong]

Originally posted by 86smopuim:

I modified Biltons Parameters SpreadSheet some more.

I am making it (near)full auto.

Its quite nice now. It even figures out favor for you.

Suprised no-ones interested.

Also surprised... Maybe everyone's busy playing with the latest rules?

Got it thanx

Biltong

[Lou2000]

Gents,

I have been watching this thread with interest after Apache pointed me in its general direction.

I gave the rules a quick try ... but have to admit to getting a bit lost and with so much work going on and the rules undergoing some changes, I decided to wait before getting in any deeper. However please keep it going it seems to be developing nicely.

I have one question .....as these battles are meant to be fought as a campaign, is there any rule that requires each towed gun (AT/AA etc) to have a vehicle capable of moving that unit ??

I have played quite a few PBEM's/QB's and scenarios and it is one restriction that keeps getting overlooked ... people seem to buy lots of 'fixed' guns and nothing to move then with !

In a small battle it isnt that important, but in a campaing they would be needed.

Or is it assumed that trucks and tractors would be available to move units between battles.

Just wondering ! :confused:

Lou2000

[ December 16, 2002, 04:31 AM: Message edited by: Lou2000 ]

[JaegerMeister]

86Smopuim...you asked why no ones interested?..i am, and am sure many others are, but thought you had only sent it to Billtong so far for checking?

Where can i get my hands on it?..anything that automates more of the rules gets my vote!