Assaulting tanks?

[Ant]

Just got CMBB last week and am thoroughly impressed with it and enjoying it so far, but I'd like to ask a wee question if I may.

I was wondering what people's experience was of using infantry to assault tanks. I'm particularly referring to Soviet infantry, bog standard rifle squad type infantry in fact; because as far as my somewhat limited experience goes they are a bit useless. I'm using them in a tactically sound way (Enemy tank buttoned up and isolated, fairly close to my squad. Infantry in urban environment rather than in the open etc.etc.) I'm using the correct commands (follow vehicle) It's not that they won't do it, it's just that they're, well, hopeless. The assault starts out promisingly enough.........molotovs thrown about, they make a nice smashing noise and the flame looks pretty but it's all rather futile, then it gets worse. As soon as the molotovs are used up my infantry squad runs out of ideas, kneels down and patiently waits for the enemy tank to traverse it's turret and blow them to bits. Aren't they supposed to clamber up onto the engine decking and lob grenades down the hatches/ports, or is that all a bit of a Hollywood myth? They're very good at assaulting half-tracks.....grenades lobbed about everywhere, but give them a Tank to take on and it's all a bit suicidal. Is this the way it was?

I'm not criticising the game If that's realistic then fair enough, I'm happy. I just find it a bit surprising that the Red army considered the primary personnal anti-tank weapon to be a bottle of petrol with a rag in the top (I know molotovs were usually more sophisticated than that but you know what I mean) particularly considering all the stuff that the Germans had available for the average infantry squad.

[Fishu]

Try pioneer squads with satchels, those makes good work at close range

once I finished up BT5 or 7 (I dont remember which) with a pioneer squad which had already destroyed T34 and another BT5 or 7 with satchel.

Since satchels were used, they had one molotov and bunch of grenades - after two or three rounds of working on it, they finally managed to knock it out with a grenade.

So not so good experiences

I just laugh when I see them trying to lob molotovs or grenades on the tanks :I

[Ant]

I just laugh when I see them trying to lob molotovs or grenades on the tanks :

Hey, that's one better than I get. They'll quite happily throw molotovs, but I haven't yet noticed my infantry use grenades on a tank.......mind you by your description they don't sound too effective either

I know pioneer and tank hunter teams are a lot better, but so many times it ends up being the bog standard rifle squad that ends up in that position.........Maybe I need to review my tactics!

I was under the impression that infantry was quite effective against tanks in a close urban environment but from my experience, Soviet infantry at least, is nothing of the sort.

[Barrold]

I have had infantry toss grenades and force the abandonment of vehicles so it is possible. Many times they end up highly perforated but I imagine that happened a lot in real life.

BDH

[akdavis]

Originally posted by Ant:

Aren't they supposed to clamber up onto the engine decking and lob grenades down the hatches/ports, or is that all a bit of a Hollywood myth?

Largely a Hollywood myth. If a tank doesn't want someone to open their hatches, then they're not going to be opened.

Don't expect too much from molotovs, as they are really just a weapon of harrasment when it comes to buttoned-up armor. I've had some success with molotovs, but it is very much a hit or miss thing. I wouldn't rush a full squad out into the open to assualt a tank with such poor AT assets. One nice thing though, tanks that see molotovs landing on or near them will often skedaddle right quick like. Oh, and immobilizations and gun hits are not uncommon from close in assualts with simple grenades. Damage will be done, just don't expect catastrophic explosions.

[ October 19, 2002, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: akdavis ]

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by akdavis:

Don't expect too much from molotovs, as they are really just a weapon of harrasment when it comes to buttoned-up armor. I've had some success with molotovs, but it is very much a hit or miss thing. (...) Oh, and immobilizations and gun hits are not uncommon from close in assualts with simple grenades. Damage will be done, just don't expect catastrophic explosions.

True. I've noticed that the crew of an immobilized tank will often bail out, even when facing mere grenades (like a T-34 in a match I was playing). As said, molotovs are only efficient against open topped / unbuttoned vehicles; otherwise it takes a lucky shot.

[Redwolf]

I have taken out a few tanks (even IS-1) with normal grenades.

As in CMBO, headquarters seem to work better in my imagination.

Otherwise, yes, as the Soviets you are screwed in the antitank department. Your own tanks are usually the best and sometimes only punchy AT weapon. If you play with rarity you will often get good AFVs reasonably cheap.

[xerxes]

For what it's worth the early war tanks appear to be a lot more vulnerable to standard infantry close assaulting them. German rifle infantry regularly destroys the early war light tanks.

And yes, Moltovs are a meager AT weapon, but what the heck, if it's all you got you might get lucky.

[lassner.1]

The key - failing the proper assault equipment - is to get close to the tank (within 5-15m) and to keep at it for a few rounds. An extra squad or two won't hurt. But this is a slow and *dangerous* process. It is not easy - nor was it in real life. The best terrain for this kind of thing is when tanks try to move through light woods: get your infantry close and keep at it.

[Fishu]

akdavis,

Actually the idea of molotovs is partly to drive the crew out of the tank, forced by the burning fumes.

You don't want to stay long inside a tank which is getting filled up by fumes of burning gas/oil etc.

Also sometimes tanks were attempted to immobilize by throwing objects in the tracks, like big log.

Then it'd be just matter of time until the crew would be forced out.

Unfortunately the game doesnt model the *various* ways of disabling a tank.

Since russians doesn't have radios in every tank, I've also heard stories of them opening the hatch thinking there is friendly troop with something urgent, when theres really been enemy knocking on the hatch in attempt to get the commander unbutton.

[Redwolf]

Two more real-life notes:

Several nations, especially the Germans (with their 37mm AT guns against T-34) did indeed do a pretty complete training to jump on a tank and place the grenade somewhere where the tank is vulnerable. Just recently on this very forum, we have seen WW2 teaching illustrations posted how to open the ventilation cover with an axe and then drop the grenade (or molotov) into the mortor compartment.

If we see that early-war tanks (even thick ones like the IS-1) are more vulnerable to primitive AT weapons then that reflects reality as well, most tank designs were improved to remove spots vulnerable to simple grendaes or places where molotivs could pour into vital parts.

Edit: third one related to the last post: in chaotic and close-range situations it also wasn't uncommon to knock on a tank and when the crews opens a hatch drop a grenade into the tank. Most Stalingrad accounts have one or more claim of this kind. And for the tank crew it also makes sense, in the majority of cases you'll get useful information from somebody knocking politely on your tank.

[ October 19, 2002, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Eden Smallwood]

I'm with OP on one thing at least- while not having any experience in the matter, it is none the less very frustrating to bring a squad to within a few meters of an immobile tank and watch it "hide" while the turret slowly turns in its direction.

Surely a squad attacking an immobile tank should at least be able to stay out of harm's way??? ( Assuming there's no other threat around )

Eden

[ October 19, 2002, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Eden Smallwood ]

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Eden Smallwood:

I'm with OP on one thing at least- while not having any experience in the matter, it is none the less very frustrating to bring a squad to within a few meters of an immobile tank and watch it "hide" while the turret slowly turns in its direction.

Surely a squad attacking an immobile tank should at least be able to stay out of harm's way??? ( Assuming there's no other threat around )

The TacAI will not move the player's units on its own behalf unless a drop in morale causes them to do.

[Remydog]

I had a tank hunter team lob a molitov (or was it a grenade?) into a Marder which subsiquently exploded killing said tank hunter!

[coe]

Against some of the Soviet SP guns (Su-whatever) they have no armour in the back so I waited until it passed and with my HMG MG-42 squad let im have it - I've never had a German machine gun squad

destroy an SP (from the same elevation).

(or a company headquarters account for 36

enemy casualties in a later operation).

Tis too bad that HMG squads don't have grenades

(they really should).

[lassner.1]

I think that the point to remember is that the graphics are an abstraction of what is really going on during the close assault. One may assume that there are troops on the tank looking for weak spots. But one should not overlook how dangerous this whole activity was. Moreover W.W.II tanks were not as slow and lumbering as commonly portrayed - well, except for things like KTs and the like ...

[Slappy]

I have also had no luck in this department. The final indignity for me:

Soviet veteran tankhunter team, throws a molotov from 12m at an unsuspecting 250/1 (open top)! The tankhunter scores a top penetration on the HT with no effect! HT drives on as if nothing had happened.

It's been two steps down from that for regular infantry.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by coe:

Tis too bad that HMG squads don't have grenades

(they really should).

Yeah, especially on the Western Front 44-45. An american HMG team would always have a bazooka flying around, as would have practially every front-near halftrack. Likewise a German HMG team ould have a faust or two (but no Schrecks).

Soviets in WW2 (and non-first elcholon Egyptians in 1973...) would be much worse off without their own tanks around.

If you play TacOps this is one of the biggest changes: run a bunch of tanks over a HMG team or a Hummer/Jeep in close terrain and you can very well get toasted by LAAWs. Practically everybody has one of the cheap AT weapons.

[Chad Harrison]

If it hasnt already been said, keep an eye out for those panzerwurfmines (L) in early war scenarios. They work great against the T34's and KV's. Usually only tank hunter squads have them.

Chad

[lewallen]

i had a platoon of russian SMG/LMG troops take out a PzIV in a QB yesterday. It was isolated between closely spaced sections of tall pines, buttoned up, and appeared to either have very low morale or it never spotted my dudes, as it never moved as I Sneaked three squads up to within about 15-25m.

They only had 2 Molotovs per platoon, and both missed the tank, but after two turns enough grenades had been thrown and hit the tank that the crew bailed and was instantly cut down by a platoon's worth of subguns.

Man, I love those subgun squads... At pointblank, one squad has the firepower of a rifle platoon. Anyway, yeah tank assaults are hard. Out of curiosity, I reloaded that turn after saving to a different file and tried using Assault and Follow Tank commands to have two full platoons of infantry assault the tank, and it didn't work worth a tinker's damn.

The infantry charged out of the woodline and followed the tank for about 20m and then just *sat* there about 15m from the tank, doing nothing, as the turret traversed and the coax pinned them down and eventually sent them running back to the treeline in terror.

Lesson being: don't charge tanks. Instead, just sit there in cover about 20m away for a couple of turns and let the grenades do their work.

~Sam

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by lewallen:

The infantry charged out of the woodline and followed the tank for about 20m and then just *sat* there about 15m from the tank, doing nothing, as the turret traversed and the coax pinned them down and eventually sent them running back to the treeline in terror.

Thank you, that's exactly what I'm talking about! BTS, please fix or somefink!

Instead, just sit there in cover about 20m away...

...and if there is no cover, then just bring some!

Eden

[Bone_Vulture]

You guys forgot all about the notorious Finnish AT weapon... "Log".

[Fishu]

Vulture,

...did not

[Bone_Vulture]

Sorry Fishu, I have a magical skill of misreading threads.

But to get tback to the topic... I do not know how hard is it to modify the troop AI, but would it be possible to make the "follow vehicle" command work in a similar way as "shoot & scoot"? Meaning that if put a waypoint on an enemy vehicle, you could still place another waypoint from the vehicle (to the nearest cover, for instance).

What would happen when this command would be executed is that the squad assigned to follow the enemy vehicle only does so as long as it has a reasonable chance of busting it (i.e. enough AT weapons, not fatigued, manpower). When the AI decides that the squad doesn't have anything to assault the vehicle with, it'll move towards the waypoint given, unless the squad is pinned or fleeing.

[Nippy]

I just laugh when I see them trying to lob molotovs or grenades on the tanks :I

Keep laughing, and please ignore the flame thrower sneaking up behind you.

For the Sovets, I've found a well trained Flame thrower team can deal some real damaged to a tank one on one urban/heavy forest combat.

German tanks don't like being covered in burning oil for some reason...