Assaulting tanks?

[Ant]

Thanks for the feedback guys. It seems most people are having similar frustrating experiences using standard infantry against tanks. I did a search on the internet regarding this and it would seem to be realistic. This is from one tank site:

Forget the movies: it is not easy for infantry to overcome tanks. The simplest tactic to use if infantry jump on a tank is to have another tank in the unit shoot them off with machine-gun fire. Since small caliber bullets won't penetrate the friendly tank, it is easy for another tank to clear off the infantry. A tank may have limited visibility when its crew has the hatches closed, but it is not a sitting duck.

Likewise, jumping on a tank and throwing a grenade down the hatch is not easy. When crews close the hatches, they also lock them. Firing into vision slits is hard, since there are few such slits and many are blocked by thick glass or wire. What infantry usually does, if it catches a tank, is to destroy it with bazooka-type weapons or explosives. They first want to kill its mobility, which means ruining the track or suspension. Next they will place explosives in a place which is likely to cause spalling. They can pour gasoline into the engine compartment to set it afire or any number of tricks. First ,they have to catch a tank alone and vulnerable. Since tanks work in units and are supported by their own infantry, such scenarios are rare.

I'm just left a bit surprised that the Soviets never came up with any usefull man-portable anti-tank devices such as the other major powers used. I suppose they usually had enough T34's to not need to, late on in the war anyway.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by Fishu:

Try pioneer squads with satchels, those makes good work at close range

Or accountants with brief-cases, they bore the Tank crews to death.

Regards

Jim R.

[Spanish Bombs]

I was playing a scenario today and had two 'top penetrations' with a molotov cocktail on a 250/1 HT. The HT just backed out of the way, though and at most I killed a crew member. Seems to me that a 'penetration' with a molotov cocktail should almost always wipe out an open topped vehicle. Anyone else run into this?

[Coffin 'Enry]

Originally posted by Spanish Bombs:

I was playing a scenario today and had two 'top penetrations' with a molotov cocktail on a 250/1 HT. The HT just backed out of the way, though and at most I killed a crew member. Seems to me that a 'penetration' with a molotov cocktail should almost always wipe out an open topped vehicle. Anyone else run into this?

Not with a half track, but I have seen an open topped armoured car survive three(3) top penetrations from molotov cocktials.

[Gremlin]

You all may find this interesting, considering the topic at hand: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=014827

It's a translation I did almost two years ago of a German field manual (geared towards the Ostfront, no less) about how to close assault tanks. Bits of the translation are a tad rough, but it does capture the style of the document, even though it may not appear that way at times! (Some day I'll go back and revise it if I have time--my knowledge of both German and the technical terms involved has increased substantially in the past couple years. I'm just too busy now!)

I haven't been able to find active links to the manual, but there are some pictures from it here: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/wwii/panzer/images/ (search down)

Apparently, you can buy reproductions here: http://www.kommiss.de/literatur.htm I know nothing about that site, though. The manual is certainly worth checking out if you can get a hold of it.

[ October 21, 2002, 06:37 AM: Message edited by: Gremlin ]

[ParaBellum]

So far I'm quite pleased with my infantry's close assaults. Just don't expect miracles when sending a green squad into an open field to assault a Tiger with nothing but brave hearts and a toothpick.

Coordination is the name of the game. Distract tanks with regular infantry, then sneak tank hunter teams to their rear. Of course infantry close assaults work much better in areas with lots of cover like villages and woods.

In a current PBEM I charged a '41 Panzergrenadier platoon towards a light russian tank in a wooded area. While still running one of the squads fired a rifle grenade, hitting the tank with no effect.

Then another squad threw a grenade bundle, getting a 'penetration hit'. The enemy tank seemed to panic, reversing from the onslaught into a nearby field, crashing into 2 already burning wrecks, pushing them slowly back when a 2nd grenade bundle (distance: ca. 25-30m) hit, immobilizing it.

Then a PzIII finished him off.

When the crew bailed out they where immediatly mowed down...

Talk about interesting 60 seconds!

[Ant]

Thanks for the link Gremlin, good read.

So far I'm quite pleased with my infantry's close assaults.

That's probably because you're using German infantry and therefore have access to: Panzerausts, grenade bundles, panzerschreks, and those funny anti tank mine things that I can't remember the name of (panzerwurfmine?)

Try using soviet infantry armed with a couple of molotovs

Once again I'm not criticising the game at all..........just very surprised that the red army never bothered to come up with any decent man-portable anti-tank weapons.

Oh and one more thing. Am I the only person dissapointed that my 1910 maxim guns haven't got little wheels on?

[Gremlin]

Once again I'm not criticising the game at all..........just very surprised that the red army never bothered to come up with any decent man-portable anti-tank weapons.

Sure they did: "Private Ivan, carry conscript Boris over to that Panther and throw him in the treads. That should gum up the works!" Portable anti-tank weapon, NKVD style

Seriously, Zaloga and Ness discuss Soviet man-portable AT weapons, such as they were, beginning on p. 193 of their excellent Red Army Handbook: 1939-1945.

[KNac]

As Panzerbellum I'm very happy with my guys. The only assault I had to to do where in 41' (early Barbarossa) and with German, so no, I hadn't any panzerfaust schrek or soemthing like that.

In a single battle I managed to assault and destroy 2 KV-2. The first and most essential thing is to split the tanks and inf, if not nothing will work. To assault in an effective manner a tank you will have to use at least a pair of squads with link to their HQ (with anykind of extras like morale and force if possible), also they need at least grenades and if possible otherkind of weapons (molotovs, rifle-grenades, anythig is ok). The most usefull are tank hunter teams with mines, off course.

The quality of the guys should be regular at least, if possible. Once isolated, the tank must be buttoned up and distracted with anykind of fire, other squad firing from other place, HMG, or even an other tank moving fast and shoting, use shoot&scoot order), then advance with your teams, very near (15 meter at least) and wait a bit. If isolated the tank should fall early, depend on the fanatism and quality of the tank crew too.

Off course don't expect miracle, no assault over open terrain unless the tank is totally isolated and w/o any support (not HMG from a forest 400m away) and it is stopped (or inmovile) and buttoned up. Distract alway the tank with other guys. In urban warfare the inf can win sually, and in wooden areas too.

That's my experience.