Kwacker Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Minor quibble: I'm playing the Yelnia battle PBEM as the krauts and was pleasantly surprised to find that my opponent had setup his tank platoon with mounted infantry within line of sight and all bunched together. Realistically he probably did not have much choice on this relatively small map. What else could I do but run a pre-planned artillery strike and lo and behold within seconds I had the mounted platoon scattering in all directions and was unlucky not to get some serious damage inflicted on the tanks. This is all cool except that I'm guessing it is not what was intended from the pre-planned strike feature. As I understand it the idea is to simulate previously laid-in artillery reference points for immediate use when a hapless enemy wanders in from the direction you expect the attack to come. Unfortunately the present implementation allows us to spot the enemy after setup and then call in a precise pre-planned strike whereever they might be. This seems to be having ones cake and scoffing it. A better idea might be to require pe-planned strikes to be called during the setup phase not the 1st turn - i.e. when you can't see your opponents setup. Am I missing something or is this a little sub-optimal? Maybe the implementation I suggest is limited by the software in which case I can certainly live with it - if not it might be worth changing for the full CMBB release. Otherwise this game is everything I hoped for - and the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrewolf Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 I thought of the same thing my self Even if we can't see the troops at 1st turn we can approximate where one might place their troops especially in meeting engagement where its a dash to the center Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubes Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 I'm pretty sure pre art can't be used in meeeting engagements ? Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Originally posted by Cubes: I'm pretty sure pre art can't be used in meeeting engagements ? GeoffI dont know if they have said one way or the other. It would make sense that it would not be possible, but you never know what might happen next in CMBB! Just a few more weeks and we will all know these answers . . . Chad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwacker Posted September 4, 2002 Author Share Posted September 4, 2002 Planned strikes are definately not allowed in MEs - per the new features list. What I am getting at though is that I have no problem if someone with tactical genius guesses which way the bad guys are gonna come and sets up a pre-planned strike. However the keyword here is "pre" - it should not be possible to wait to you see them (i.e. orders for turn 1) and then plan and immediately execute a strike. These things by definition take time to arrange and therefore enemy position at some time in the future can only be guessed at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma of Finland Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 I think also PRE-planned arty strikes should be planned before actually being able to see the enemy units. (Whether this was in setup phase or an extra phase before action doesn't matter.) Otherwise this might enable gamey tactics like putting few units on display to pull any pre-planned bombardment while the real core of forces is hiding somewhere else. Completely IMHO /kuma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Chung Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Going slightly off on a tangent. I've played the Yelnia Scare a few times as the Germans against the AI as the Russkies and I've noticed the AI is not using his artillery spotter to order a 1st turn barrage (which is one of the new features of CMBB). In one game, the Russian artillery did not start arriving until turn 26 when the battle was all but over. Has anyone experience an AI instructed 1st turn barrage? Can the guys at BFC tweak CMBB so that the AI will be inclined to order a 1st turn barrage. It seems an awful waste for the AI not to get it's, ahem, load off in the first turn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 1) The AI will get its rocks off real good in the first turn. I mean real, real good. Like howitzer battalion good with rickets on top. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conscript Bagger Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Originally posted by Keef: It seems an awful waste for the AI not to get it's, ahem, load off in the first turn...The AI must have some of those stamina-enhancing pills I always get e-mailed about... (BTW the AI did use the German artillery on the first turn of my Yelnia game. Didn't even scratch the tanks' paint, but it played hell with a couple of infantry platoons who were too close.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 The first time I played Yelnia, the German AI used a first-turn pre-planned barrage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 I believe the AI NEEDS to be in direct line-of-sight in order to do an opening barrage. Unlike humans, the AI isn't willing to just guess the enemy might be 'behind that hill'. As a matter of fact it's more difficult to do normal-type artillery targeting in out of LOS in CMBB too. Their attempt to reduce some of the more gamey uses of artillery from CMBO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The ol one eye. Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Every time I play Yelina as Soviets I get nailed with a first turn strike. Now I just hide my troops on the flanks and it just drop harmlessly on the tanks. The use of decoys is surely gamey, but if the soft targets are just laying out there in the open you should be wary that they may be decoys and fire on the most likely spot anyways. On one hand, it does seem somewhat unfair to plot barrages on turn one when you can see your opponents. What I think its trying to simulate is the arty being preplanned for the entire front, just waiting for the enemy to come into effective range\ position before the spotter pinpoints and orders the fire. Its like having a giant TRP I guess. The setup phase is just that, setup, but turn one is when you know the enemy is in your territory and you have the arty preplanned and waiting for the final adjustment. Hell if I know really, just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Saunders Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 I thought it was odd that as a defender I could call these pre-planned barrages. TRPs as defender I can understand but surely only the attacker knows when to call a prep barrage!? -Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Originally posted by The ol one eye.: [snips] The use of decoys is surely gamey, but if the soft targets are just laying out there in the open you should be wary that they may be decoys and fire on the most likely spot anyways. Why so? I should have thought diversionary tactics were an entirely reasonable thing to engage in. All the best, John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Chung Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Hey, thanks for the pointers, guys. I guess I'm going to have to continue playing Yelnia and experimenting with setup. As said by some of you fellows, it does appear that the AI (whether as Germans or Russkies) needs to see some clear indication of enemy positions at turn one before he decides to get his "rocks off" on the first turn.. Hey, must put on on the Exile on Main Street CD... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Originally posted by Sarge Saunders: I thought it was odd that as a defender I could call these pre-planned barrages. TRPs as defender I can understand but surely only the attacker knows when to call a prep barrage!? -SargeDunno if this helps, but in reading about the Kursk defense, I saw lots of references to "counter-prepartory" barrages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Defender barrages weer certainly known - the Russians knew of the German plans at Kursk and laid into them with artillery some hours before the attack was due to begin. IMO the optimum time for setting up pre-planned bombardmetns is (ta da...) during the SETUP!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwacker Posted September 5, 2002 Author Share Posted September 5, 2002 Bump to see if any of the Battlefront gods have a comment - should setup of pre-planned bombardments be during setup rather than 1st turn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 This definitely sounds like the right way to go, that pre-planned arty must be planned during the setup phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Tell me why the attacker should not be able to strike with pre-planned artillery at known enemy positions? Surely, if the defenders positions can be seen in turn one, then the defenders positions could have been seen by attacker's scouts, before turn one. So it would be possible to arrange pre-planned artillery strike at those location. Even more so, if this place has been fought over earlier. If the scenario gives defender very few options to position his/hers troops then pre-planned artillery is and should be devastating. It's stupid to place troops in obvious locations (yes, it is sometimes impossible to avoid). Usually defender can choose where to defend. Scenario designers should take this into account so the terrain should seldom be very bad for the defenfer (yes, there are exceptions ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwacker Posted September 5, 2002 Author Share Posted September 5, 2002 Good point. Seems to me to be two things confused. For the attacker I agree that pre-planned bombardments, planned during turn 1, is pretty realistic - as mentioned the scouts could have determined obvious (static) defender positions and arranged a synchronized strike to occur as the attack began. For the defender though I would have thought it more realistic to have any pre-planned strike setup during the setup phase - it is unlikely that the attacker would have telegraphed his attack plan and then remain static enough within LOS to allow a bombardment to be brought down right on him. Hence I suggest defender sets up preplaned bombardment during the setup phase (no prior knowledge), attacker sets up bombardmnts during turn 1 - with knowledge of the location of any clearly visible defender. For meeting engagements the point is irrelevant as pre-planned ombardments are not allowed - for similar reasons to those above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Another possible way to address this would be that the attacker can designate part of his force as off-board reinforcements. What I mean is that the assembly area for the attack would be off board, and part of the force can enter later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Originally posted by Mike: IMO the optimum time for setting up pre-planned bombardmetns is (ta da...) during the SETUP!!I agree. What's more, I had somehow gathered the impression that that's how this feature would work when it was first described by the BTS crew. Perhaps that was a false inference... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 In the meanwhile, I think I will concentrate on setting up my attacking forces where they can't be seen at the beginning of the first turn. Come to think of it, that's what I already did in CMBO anyway. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwacker Posted September 6, 2002 Author Share Posted September 6, 2002 That would be a good idea Michael, although on some small maps it's not always gonna be possible - I guess we will have to rely on scenario designers to "protect us". Ho hum still the greatest PC game ever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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