Black Death, Circle of Death, Il-2

[AnonymousOxide]

Will the IL-2 drop a bomb that detonates after a certain period of time (for example, just like a grenade)? Or does the bomb hit the ground and explode without tumbling?

This is common in the IL-2 WW2 game.

[Panzer76]

From "Fighting in Hell":

About the Il-2:

"The Il-2, a very effective and upleasant groud attack plane, made it's debut in Feb 1943. (...) Its armour also withstood 20mm Flak (...) Once this special purpose ammo (armour piercing) was used by the 20mm Flak, the Russian Il-2's suffered such heavy losses that they rapidly disappeared from the scene"

He also mentions the poor coordinations between the Soviet Air Force and the other arms, describing it as "performing their own private little war". This especially in the beginnig. This improved over the years but was never as effective and coordinated as the allied air war over western Europa.

If this is true or not, I don't know, but it is what the General Oberst says.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Panzer76:

If this is true or not, I don't know, but it is what the General Oberst says.

I just looked at my copy. Rauss was a very able armour general, but I would take his judgement on Soviet airforce performance with a grain of salt. I am for example reasonably certain that his statement on the quality of Soviet planes is just plain wrong. To mu knowledge the Soviets did produce some superb fighters during the war, and certainly the IL-2 is a much better ground attack plane than anything the Germans had. I am quite sure that there are more completely wrong statements in there.

[Nippy]

Originally posted by rune:

Nippy,

You will be happy to know that I made a scenario on the counter attack that retook the Tatsinskya Airfield. It is in testing now.

Rune

Oh come on, everyone knows that the knuckle dragging, Vodka swilling Russian weren't nearly smart enough to lauch deep behind the lines raids on enemy stratagic targets.

Just kidding...

Sounds pretty good. Any plans to include the wreckage of the 72 JU-52s destroyed there?

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by Panzer76:

From "Fighting in Hell":

He also mentions the poor coordinations between the Soviet Air Force and the other arms, describing it as "performing their own private little war".

Even if this is true, it is a pretty ironic statement given the performance of the Luftwaffe.

This improved over the years but was never as effective and coordinated as the allied air war over western Europa.

If this is true or not, I don't know, but it is what the General Oberst says.

This last bit is probably true, but the Red Air Force could be an extremely potent force and still not be as effective or coordinated as the western allied air force. For much, if not most of the war, the air battle was the main thrust of the Western allies, and they were consequently very good at it.

I think a more relevant comparison would be the Sov. air force vs. the German air force. In this comparison, the Sov. air force does not come off badly at all.

Interestingly, I recently read (I think in Glantz) that during the battle of Kursk the Germans had 370 fighters in support, but they had more - around 460 - stationed in Germany to fight off the western allies. (I don't remember the exact numbers, but it's something like that).

Glantz suggests that one of the great underappreciated contributions the western allies made was that they tied up (and eventually shot down) so many German fighters. Unlike the bombing campaign (whose efficacy is not clear), removing hundreds of fighters from combat duties in the east had a direct and substantial effect on combat in the east.

[TSword]

Although, the germans were not able to deliver enough gaz and spare parts for the small Luftflotte operating at Kursk, where operational sorties dropped off the third day and only the most important ground actions could be supported. (Btw up to 20 August 1943).

The germans were not able to maintain a much larger Airforce in the East up to 1943 when they still were deep in enemy territory logistically. Later on this changed of course and there the contributions of the Western allied airforces cannot be overestimated.

Greets

Daniel

[Foreigner]

I admit I have not read "Fighting in Hell", but there are some inconsistencies in the statements from that book as quoted in a previous post.

First of all, the quotes claim Il-2s appearing in 1943(?), and dissapearing soon after(??). There were, of course, different modifications of the plane, but the basic model had been in service since well before Barbarossa and soldiered on throughout the whole war. Most characteristically, all accounts of the battle for Berlin from the Soviet side prominently mention the fact that in the last days the Sturmoviks were initially forbidden from sortying for fear of hitting their own troops. Then infantry commanders specifically requested that the planes be allowed to just fly overhead. According to field reports, the sound of the engines of the "Meatgrinder from hell" was usually sufficient for the German defenders to start taking cover and reduce the volume of their fire. Not bad for a plane that had "disappeared from the scene". All in all, about 40,000 were made, which is a pretty large number.

I will be making some wild guesses here, but the only way to explain such inconsistent (IMHO) statements would be if they relate to a particular (not very sucessful) modification of IL-2 (like the ones with 37mm cannons), a particular sector at a particular time, or the fact that as the war progressed, the importance of the plane as an anti-tank weapon diminished. Instead, towards the end of the war Il-2s were widely used to suppress AA batteries - which is no mean feat to do in a plane. Of course, that led to increased Il-2 losses, but once the AA guns were supressed, heavier (and more vulnerable) bombers could breathe easier.

Il-2s were not some invulnerable überaircraft: the could be and were shot down; they were not without their drawbacks and shortcomings; they did not appear as a finished and refined design overnight; and, in tactical use, their coordination with ground troops was probably far from perfect. But it was probably the first true and most effective close support combat aircraft of its time, for it was designed to operate at extremely low altitudes against small targets while able to absorb a staggering amount of punishment (I remember an estimate that Il-2 had 100 times the combat endurance of Ju-87). Some accounts mention planes safely reaching base with holes in their wings "large enough for a man to pass through".

But don't take only my word for it. The Following is probably the best site I could find with a quick Google search. A surprisingly good (though not perfect) source is the web site of the game "IL-2 Sturmovik". This list of in-game aircraft has brief details on practically all modifications of the plane that have seen at least some combat (AFAIK).

For the impatient ones (or those who have nothing better to do than read long posts) , I've given some details and tidbits below.

The most distinct characteristic of the plane was the all-around "stressed" steel armor protection of all the vital "intestines" of the plane - engine, fuel tanks and 4 bomb compartments. Even the cockpit canopy was made of "armor glass" more than 2in thick. The wings and the tail section of Il-2 were not armored, though, and unlike the pilot, the rear-facing machine gunner was not comletely protected by armor, as well. This was because, though present in the original test designs, the rear-gunner position was "designed away" in the first production planes, and then hastily reinstated at the end of 1941. And since there was no time to redesign the "armor box", the rear-gunner was tucked with his back to the ouside of the rear armor plate. Initially he didn't even have a decent seat, but was suspended in something like a harness.

The 20mm and 23mm cannons of Il-2 were only effective against soft-skinned vehicles; the plane's main anti-tank weapons were 82mm (later 132mm) rockets, heavy HE bombs and (after 1943) shaped-charge PTAB bombs. Versions equipped with 37mm cannons were field-tested in 1943; they were able to achieve side and rear penetrations and immobilizations of Pz-IIIs and Pz-IVs from reasonable combat distances (some claimed Panther kills), but the recoil was too strong to control and speed and handling suffered too much, so the overall combat effectiveness was lower. AFAIK, versions with 45mm cannons never made it past prototypes. Unfortunately, this interesting article on The Rusian Battlefield site has not been translated yet.

The Soviet pilots were fairly confident in the survivability of their Il-2s, but quickly learned not to fly straight at Tigers - after all, the latter's 88mm was a modification of a Flak gun, and sometimes could be elevated high enough to deal with a low-flying and fairly slow plane - especially if it made things easier for them by not taking evasive action. Those who have read D. Loza's memoirs in their entirety can remeber a similar episode, when one of Loza's comrades used the 76mm gun of his Sherman (again based on a AA gun) to down a He-111.

Especially during the initial years of the war in the East front, Il-2s which had dropped their bomb loads often used their cannons in air-to-air combat. SOP for an Il-2 pair when attacked by fighters was to form a circle - each plane protecting the other's rear - and thus creep back home. And although fighters had a definite advantage in such a fight, it didn't mean automatic victory - one Soviet Il-2 pilot was credited with 6 downed German fighters over the course of his career. More interestingly, though, Il-2 was fairly effective against German bombers: while they could not outrun or outmaneuver it, it could shrug off their defensive MG fire and thus could afford the luxury of firing from very short distances indeed. In fact, work was started on a pure "armored fighter" version, but by the time it was ready there were enough aircraft better suited for the task.

Regarding another post on this thread, Il-2 had both instant-action and delayed-fuse HE bombs. The latter were used to avoid blast damage when dive bombing (remember, Il-2 is primarily a low-altitude plane), and as such were used mainly for fixed targets. Instant-action bombs were released from level flight.

Finally, it was not unusual for Soviet pilots to transport "stowaways" - an extra person - in the hollow tail section of their planes. Thie seems to have been a popular way to speed up the transfer of ground crews to a new location.