Headquarter units are they for real?

[lcm1947]

I have been playing this game for over a year and it's the best but I have always from day one been disappointed, upset and sometimes discussed by how hard it is to kill these units. I mean they are only what 4 men. And they don't have laser blasters or anything but still seem to be able to wipe out or at least win over my platoon of 12 men. I just feel they are way over modelled in that regard. Anybody else feel this way or is it just my military memory of what these units really are capable of. Not having been an officer myself I just don't remember them being this bad, meaning tough. Any comments or advise to show me how wrong I am would be helpful as it really really bugs me.

[Olle Petersson]

Now that you mention it...

I don't think they have too good firepower. After all, they're practically a half squad (platoon HQ) up to full squad (battalion HQ) in man power and armament.

What they do have is very good staying power. They seem very difficult to wipe out while at the same time attract fire like almost no other unit.

Cheers

Olle

[Cogust]

Hum, I have not experienced any problems with wiping out any enemy HQs. I find that after a medium barrage on a platoon, the HQ generally lies face-up together with any mortars or AT-teams. They don't break as much as other squads though, but my experience is that they die just the same (or even faster as I tend to target them as often as possible). Can it be that they generally is further away from the shooters and in better cover than regular squads?

[Michael Dorosh]

A platoon headquarters represents the platoon leader and his runner and two other men. The platoon leader was usually armed with an SMG in the armies portrayed in CMBO, which would give them a bit of close in firepower advantage over a squad armed with bolt action rifles. Does that help at all?

[aka_tom_w]

They are somewhat resilient for sure.

Since C&C is modeled and keeping those other 3 squads in command is important to the Player it stands to reason that the HQ unit should be the last to break and run. They are tough to take out, but I don't think they are too tough.

Using an HQ unit is invaluable if a squad tries to close assualt a tank for instance, without the HQ in command radius (close by) that sqaud is almost sure to fail.

I think these platoon HQ's are modeled with a little extra "staying power" to show they are supposed to be the smarter, "well trained officer corp" I'm guessing.

I do not think they are over modeled, and I think trying to kill all the opposing enemy HQ units is a VERY good idea because other opposing units (squads and the like) not in command radius are MUCH slower to respond to the orders of the Player and break much easier.

-tom w

[ May 02, 2002, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Redwolf]

CMBO HQs are pretty good fighters, I noticed that several times. They have no LMGs, hence they feel weak for general work, but cracking touch nuts like handgrenading tanks or pillboxes are done pretty well.

In addition, German HQs have several SMGs, and Allied Company and up HQs fast-firing rifles, so rushing them can get a you a pretty bloddy nose.

[M Hofbauer]

I did notice their tendency (when under AI command) to run up to any enemy tank they see trying to take it out single-handedly.

[lcm1947]

I realize that the German HQ unit has a SMG and that would certainly be of some value close up but I seem to always see them off by themselves and at good distance and still bring major whip ass on my full squad. I really think they are over modelled. Yes I have always noticed and still do that they love taking on tanks all by themselves and normally can knock it out. Now this I feel is not realistic at all. Maybe once in a blue moon but certainly nothing like it goes on in the game. I really feel that a full squad with M1 semi-auto rifles plus 1 or 2 Thompson's would pervail over one smg and 3 bolt action rifles. I may even have to modify thier ammo amount to get them to behave more like 4 guys then a full 10 or 12 squad.

[Mattias]

Does anybody know for a fact that a HQ is more resilient or effective than a four man squad (in command of a HQ with equal bonuses), or is it just speculation?

M.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Mattias:

Does anybody know for a fact that a HQ is more resilient or effective than a four man squad (in command of a HQ with equal bonuses), or is it just speculation?

M.

It is just an impression, but a strong one. I wouldn't have made it to Nordic Wannabee finals without that

German HQs have more than one SMG, BTW, that's the whole point I was trying to make. No wonder people try to rush them and fail...

[lcm1947]

Redwolf you may have just correctly answered the question. I had thought they only had 1 smg. Two would certainly make a difference. I will have to do some research and get back but not being anything but a poor debater and having no experience in tabulating info it may not prove anything but at least might satisfy myself.

[Conscript Bagger]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

Yes I have always noticed and still do that they love taking on tanks all by themselves and normally can knock it out. Now this I feel is not realistic at all. Maybe once in a blue moon but certainly nothing like it goes on in the game.

Are you disagreeing with the frequency with which they close assault, or their success rate? The latter is a programming issue; the former is a result of players driving their tanks too close to enemy infantry. I'm guessing it's bad tactics more than bad programming.

[lcm1947]

I am disagreeing with both but I understand that tanks should stand off but in a lot of cases it's not me it's those damn officiers they just charge my tanks for no good reason. Believe me I avoid them whenever possible knowing what they can do but sometimes you don't realize where they are and I've got to get my tanks or tank in position.

Now as far as my little test I guess I was wrong. Looks like the full squads came out much better then the HQ units in the 3 tests I did. I had marked off three different distances 240, 160 and 107 yards or meters, what ever the game uses. In all three cases the American's beat up pretty bad on the HQ guys. The funny thing I noticed was that the full rifle squads did the most damage at the closest range. It was a landslide actually. In just 4 turns they killed every one of the HQ units except for the 4 that surrendered compared to their lost of 9 soldiers. At the 240 meters losts were HQ units 30 men to the full squads only 4 being killed after 18 turns and the 160 meter shootout that lasted 16 turns the HQ units had all killed except the 2 that surrendered but that remember was after 16 turns to 17 American's being killed.

Anyway, even though I was mistaken about my experiences in the game I found out for sure that the HQ units aren't all that tough after all and to shut up about it already. Interesting though.

[Conscript Bagger]

My armor is always dead long before it's within range of an HQ unit, so I haven't shared your frustration.

Do you notice a difference in tank-rushing behavior between attacking and defending scenarios? I'm wondering if it's related to how (AI-controlled) lone HQ's bravely charge into the teeth of the defense.

[Doug Beman]

Yeah, lcm, at 240m a German HQ squad, armed with 2 SMGs, rifle, and pistol, has a firepower rating about equal to a 5th grade class armed with snowballs.

The tendency of HQs (also gun/vehicle crews, FOs, etc) to charge into battle, especially late in a battle, has been remarked upon very often. It seems they only do this after all other units are combat-ineffective. It seems something in the AI refused to admit defeat and urges every living soldier into the teeth of enemy fire.

Am not too familiar with HQs taking out tanks; I've had my tanks in a bad spot plenty of times, and lost plenty to infantry, but it's usually a PF or rifle grenade shot, or even a "graphically undepicted" close assault.

To echo what Offwhite said: by the time the enemy comes at me with HQs, I usually have only the crews of tanks to meet him with.

DjB

[ May 02, 2002, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Doug Beman ]

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Doug Beman:

Yeah, lcm, at 240m a German HQ squad, armed with 2 SMGs, rifle, and pistol, has a firepower rating about equal to a 5th grade class armed with snowballs.

Yes, and hence...

The tendency of HQs (also gun/vehicle crews, FOs, etc) to charge into battle, especially late in a battle, has been remarked upon very often.

... they try to move to a range where their weapons are effective.

[lcm1947]

To answer your question Offwhite I really have not noticed any difference not that there isn't. I probably just haven't noticed but if I had to say one way or the other I'd say when they are on defense. I say that because I mostly do the attacking like 80 to 90% of the time so I guess when they are defending. I can't stand to sit around and wait to be attacked so I prefer the attack plus I've heard more then once on this board that the AI does a better job defending so I'm thinking it's a better game for me. Doug I can only warn you about the crazy HQ units - watch out for them. They are nuts! Also, I didn't mean they were the only one's taking out my tanks. Like you the other troops get their fair share and that I can kind of understand after all they have the proper weapons but HQ units? And besides I just hate losing tanks to an officer and his 3 buds.

[Scipio]

Here is the TO&E for a German Jaeger Company HQ & a Platoon HQ (December 43)

1 Company Commander - 1 Pistol, 1 SMG, 1 Horse

1 Company Troop Leader - 1 SMG

1 Commander of Battle Vehicels (also food Master) - 1 SMG

1 Medical NCO - 1 Pistol, 1 Bycicle

2 Bycicle Messengers - 2 SMG, 2Bycicles

1 Messenger - 1 SMG

4 Radio Operators - 4 SMG, 4 Radios

1 Assistant Weapon Master - 1 Rifle

2 Horse Leaders for Jf8 Infantry cart - 2 Rifles, 1 Jf8 Infantry cart, 2 Draft Horses

1 Horse Attendant for Officer's horse - 1 Rifle

That's 15 men with 1 SMG + 1 Pistol, 1 Pistol, 9 SMGs and 4 rifles. Additionaly the Company has a Field Train & Admin Staff with 4 NCOs & 16 men - 18 Rifles, 1 SMG & 1 LMG

In CM, the Gebirgsjaeger Company HQ has only 6 men with 2 Pistols, 3 SMGs and one Rifle. The TO&E could look like this:

1 Company Leader - 1 Pistol

1 Medical NCO - 1 Pistol

2 Radio Operators - 2 SMG

1 Messenger - 1 SMG

1 Horse Attendant - 1 Rifle

BTW, the TO&E for a US Mountain Infantry Company (November 44) shows 2 Officers, 5 NCOs and 28 Privates. Each men was equipted with a .30cal M1 carbine. Additional equipment: 6 .45 SMG & 2 Bazookas. It is not specifically written down, but I assume the Field Train is included.

The TO&E for German Jaeger Platoon HQ (December 43):

1 Platoon Leader - 1 Pistol & 1 SMG

2 Messengers - 2 SMGs

1 Stretcher Bearer - 1 Pistol

1 Horse Leader - 1 Rifle

In CM we have one less SMG. Let's assume one messenger is absent.

The source for the German TO&E: American Historical Association Commitee for the Study of War Documents, Washington DC

US TO&E : US Army Historical Center, Carlisle Barracks, PA

So, the HQs were in reality much stronger then we have them in CM. Maybe this is something that should be corrected?

[ May 03, 2002, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: Scipio ]

[Caesar]

Are you guys complaining HQs are too strong? :confused: Can we swap. Mine die like fies. :mad: I go to great lengths to keep them alive. I always try to keep them behind the squads, give them the best cover etc. As soon as the other guy opens up bye bye HQ. If arty lands near - the HQ gets it. What the heck am I doing wrong?

[Conscript Bagger]

Interesting to see that German medical troops are armed in Scipio's TOE. Dunno about other Allies, but if memory serves, American medics were not supposed to be carrying weapons (though doubtless some did) during WWII. I've read several accounts over the years of how both sides in NW Europe took care to avoid firing on the enemy's medical personnel (when they ID'd them as such), so it's surprising that the Germans were arming their guys.

Granted, it's the pragmatic thing to do in modern war.

[ May 03, 2002, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Offwhite ]

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Offwhite:

Interesting to see that German medical troops are armed in Scipio's TOE. Dunno about other Allies, but if memory serves, American medics were not supposed to be carrying weapons (though doubtless some did) during WWII. I've read several accounts over the years of how both sides in NW Europe took care to avoid firing on the enemy's medical personnel (when they ID'd them as such), so it's surprising that the Germans were arming their guys.

Granted, it's the pragmatic thing to do in modern war.

First, a pistol is not considered armament in this regard and therefore is ok for medics as it falls under self-desfense weaponry, in contrast to, say, a SMG.

Secondly, my guess is that the medics units made bad experiences on the eastern front when they relied on their red cross markings alone. The TOE doesn't specify into western or eastern deployed units.

[Thermopylae]

I think HQs tend to seem "tougher" because there seesm tobe some sort of algoriuthm making hits mor eliekly on larger groups of men...in the saem way Machinegunners and hblaf sqauds don't die as fast as you'd think?