Mine Detection

[Jim Harrison]

Whats up with mines????? TWO COMPANIES of engineers walk down the down the road pausing every other turn and NOT ONE see an anti-tank mine field in the MIDDLE of the road. IMHO this SUCKS, and needs to be fixed, there is NO WAY two companies of engineers tasked with clearing a road will miss those mine fields unless by design they don't search in this game (in which case mines should be thrown out of the game). I am royally POed when I lose a tank to mines after the engineers have spend five turns on the spot clearing.

[ August 01, 2002, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Jim Harrison ]

[JonS]

Isn't it kind of cool that two years(+) after the game was released we can still get posts like this?

Hurrah for you Jim!

Regards

JonS

[ASL Veteran]

I feel your pain

I don't think there is any way to detect a minefield in CMBO other than to step on one. I've seen others on the board claim that mines can be detected, but I don't really buy it. As far as I know there has been no 'official' word one way or the other.

Assuming that there is currently no way to detect mines in CMBO, I hope that there is a way to at least 'detect' mines in CMBB without having to walk or drive on them. I'm not sure how far up the priority list mine detection was though (or if it was even on the priority list to begin with). One could probably argue that mine clearance without the use of explosives would be out of the scope of the game (probing, then lifting each individual mine detected) but I sure think it would be great if we could 'search' suspected areas for minefields so we could avoid them at least. This would be especially handy for AT minefields as the loss of a vehicle can really put a hurtin' on your chances of victory.

Post edited for clarity

[ August 01, 2002, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: ASL Veteran ]

[Clubfoot]

You certainly can detect minefields without stumbling through them. Run some tests.

[Doug Beman]

I recall a few instances in which an engineer squad, while sitting still, found a minefield immediately adjacent.

As to "was detection routinely possible/practiced during battle?" there are two camps on this. One stands by a belief that, in the scope of a CM-style battle, engineers would not be lugging their mine detection equipment around, but would instead be intent upon using explosives/etc to destroy enemy pillboxes.

The other camp either believes that use of mine detection gear under fire was a SOP, or that detection of a minefield, particularly of large AT mines, would be possible even without metal detectors etc, as these mines leave a telltale mark upon the ground that is difficult to completely conceal.

Compounding the issue is a lack of either known procedures in this case, or authoritative evidence of routine mine detection during battle. BTS contemplated what evidence they could find, and judged that mine detection in the scope of a CM-style battle was a matter of "not seeing it until you step on it."

If you believe otherwise, it would behoove you to locate hard evidence to the contrary (battle reports, unit histories, military field manuals, etc) and present them to BTS. Stating your opinion will garner no response whatsoever.

EDIT in light of Clubby's post:

Indeed, it is possible (per my vague recollections) to do this. However, the effectiveness is related to a LOT of factors. Were the engineers using their full panoply of gear, they would almost never miss a minefield.

DjB

[ August 01, 2002, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Doug Beman ]

[YankeeDog]

Please use the search function!!

There are good arguments on both sides of this issue. But as has been mentioned, it has been discussed in detail before. If you feel like you have something new to add, ressurect an old thread on the subject - that way we can all read what's already been said and go on from there.

Cheers,

YD

[Silvio Manuel]

As far as I've heard, you can detect AP mines before a leg troop steps on one. However, you CANNOT detect AT mines (the regular kind, daisychain is automatically spotted) before a vehicle drives over one. People [redwolf? Joe Shaw? can't recall] have confirmed this trait of AT mines by placing Elite, in-command, unsuppressed Engineers *on top of* an AT mine tile for many turns...they never spot it.

[ August 01, 2002, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]

[ASL Veteran]

Even though this has been discussed before, I see no reason not to hash through it again.

I just happen to have a copy of FM 20-32 "Mine / Countermine Operations" published by "Headquarters, Department of the Army, December 1985" and I will post some info about mine detection in a few .... and I won't even ask the commander of TRADOC at Fort Monroe VA before doing it!

[ASL Veteran]

Okay, so some of this stuff is pretty obvious, but it should give an idea about mine detection. I left out the section on electronic detection since the technology would be much different in 85 as opposed to 45!

Detection is the actual confirmation and location of mines. It may be accomplished through reconnaissance or it may be unintentional such as a vehicle running into a mine. Mine detection is used in conjunction with intelligence gathering operations, minefield bypass reconnaissance, and breaching and clearing operations. There are three types of detection methods: visual, physical (probing), and electronic.

Visual detection is part of all combat operations. The following techniques are recommended for visual detection of mines and booby traps. Personnel visually inspect the terrain for:

Tripwires

Signs of road repair (such as new fill or paving, road patches, ditching, or culvert work)

Signs placed on trees, posts, or stakes: Threat forces mark their minefields to protect their own forces

Wires leading away from the side of a road: They may be command firing wires partially buried or not buried at all

Odd features in the ground or patterns not present in nature: Plant growth will wilt or change color; rain may wash away some of the cover or the cover may sink or crack around the edges; the material covering the mines may look like mounds of dirt.

Civilians: They may know where mines or booby traps are located in the residential area. Civilians staying away from certain places or out of certain buildings are good indications of the presence of mines or booby traps. Civilians should be questioned to find the exact places.

Pieces of wood and other debris on a road: They may indicate the place where the enemy has emplaced pressure or pressure release firing devices. These devices may be on the surface or partially buried.

All antitank and antivehicular mines for antihandling devices

Patterns of objects which might be used as a sighting line: The enemy can use mines fired by command. Road shoulders and areas close to them should be searched.

Physical (probing)

Detection of mines by probing is very time consuming and used primarily for clearing operations or for breaches requiring stealth. Detection of mines by other methods should be confirmed by probing. The following procedures and techniques are used when probing for mines:

Stay close to the ground, moving on hands and knees or from a prone position.

Use sight and touch to detect tripwires, fuzes, or pressure prongs.

Roll up sleeves and remove watches and rings to increase sensitivity. Look and feel upward and forward.

Use a slender non metallic object as a probe

Probe every two inches (5 centimeters) across a 1 meter front

Push the probe gently into the ground at an angle less than 45 degrees from the horizontal

Warning!!!

If a probe is pushed straight down, its tip may detonate a pressure fuze

Warning!!!

Apply just enough pressure on the probe to sink it slowly into the ground.

If the probe encounters resistance and does not go into the ground freely, the soil should be picked away with the tip of the probe and the loose dirt removed by hand.

When a solid object is touched, probing is stopped and the surrounding soil is carefully removed to determine what the object is.

If the object is a mine, enough soil is removed to show the mine type and mark its location. No attempt is made to remove or disarm the mine. Detected mines should be destroyed in place using explosives or causing the mine to self detonate by means of a grappling hook and rope.

Warning!!!

When intelligence indicates the probability of magnetically influenced fuzes, ensure personnel are not wearing any metallic items. Items such as helmets, bayonets, and weapons should be kept out of the minefield.

Warning!!!

[ASL Veteran]

Originally posted by Clubfoot:

You certainly can detect minefields without stumbling through them. Run some tests.

This stated fact is definitely in dispute.

[Guest Mike]

I can state for a fact that AP minefields can be sen in CMBO and CMBB.

Not all of them, nd not all the time.

I'm not sure about AT inefields in CMBB - I certainly found some the hard way and I don't recall whether I saw any or not in the game I played.

[Guest Mike]

double post sorry

[ August 01, 2002, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]

[Jim Harrison]

Without getting too technical, if engineers can explode mine fields in this game then why not arty???

It seems to me that well place arty would also destroy mine fields, in my case the engineers were not under fire the whole time they walked past the mine field, this seems to indicate the only way to find them is the "gamey" techique of running some less useful equipment over the mines.

Sorry to those who don't like the rehash of I guess an old item but I have only had the game for a few months so all is new to me.

In the manual BTS seems to take great pride in indicating that they have tried to eliminate "gamey" stuff from these games, then I run into stuff like this and begin to wonder.

[Michael Emrys]

My own experience has been that sometimes you can and sometimes you can't. On some occasions my troops have spotted mines (including AT mines) without even having to get close to them. With others, they didn't until one of them had detonated. In one bizarre incident, one unit (an FO team IIRC) actually crawled through a minefield without spotting it! I only discovered it a turn later when a different unit passed close by and spotted it. Clearly there are a lot of factors involved in when or whether a minefield is spotted, likely some of them are random. This goes a long way toward explaining why there are such varied experiences being reported in this thread.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Jim Harrison:

Without getting too technical, if engineers can explode mine fields in this game then why not arty???

Like many things that have been complained about in CM, there may simply not have been enough time to write the necessary code to get it in the game. There are a number of things (I won't enumerate the list just now) that are either absent completely or are not satisfactorily implemented for just this reason. One more reason why the old-timers here are willing to be patient and give BTS all the time they need to get the new game right.

Michael

[Guest Mike]

I beleive that artillery makes a lousy mine-sweeper. the pressure of an artillery explosion is mostly directed upwards from the ground, whereas mines, normally, require downward pressure.

Airburst close to teh ground may be better - I dunno.

things like Bangalore torpedoes & Vipers (? - tube full of HE fired from an AFV and exploded to clear a path through a minefield) pack a huge amount of explosive (relatively speaking) and only clear fairly narrow lanes I believe.

I'd be interested in hearing a field engineer's experiences of these thingies.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jim Harrison:

Without getting too technical, if engineers can explode mine fields in this game then why not arty???

Like many things that have been complained about in CM, there may simply not have been enough time to write the necessary code to get it in the game...</font>

[ASL Veteran]

Originally posted by Mike:

things like Bangalore torpedoes & Vipers (? - tube full of HE fired from an AFV and exploded to clear a path through a minefield) pack a huge amount of explosive (relatively speaking) and only clear fairly narrow lanes I believe.

I'd be interested in hearing a field engineer's experiences of these thingies.

Here is what FM20-32 says about bangalore's:

The M1A1/M1A2 bangalore torpedo is an antipersonnel mine breaching device which was first introduced during World War II. It is issued as a demolition kit, consisting of ten 1.5 meter tubes, each containing 9 pounds of high explosive and weighing 13 pounds. The kit clears a lane 1 meter wide by 15 meters long. Under certain conditions, it will also breach wire obstacles, but it does not reliably cut modern, high tensile strength barbed wire, particularly if the wire is located very high above the torpedo.

The bangalore torpedo was designed as an antipersonnel mine breaching device used by dismounted infantry or engineer troops. An individual soldier or a team of two soldiers connects the number of needed sections and then pushes the torpedo through the minefield before priming it.

The bangalore torpedo is detonated by a single electric or nonelectric blasting cap. The bangalore has a tetryl booster in the detonating well and cannot be dual primed. Assembly time is approximately four crew hours per 100 meter length of torpedo.

This system is readily available in the field as a Class V item.

As far as artillery goes, I would guess that artillery would not be reliable enough to actually ensure that a 'lane' has been cleared through the minefield - regardless of its effectiveness. Did an artillery shell take out that mine over there? Maybe and maybe not - ya just don't know unless you probe the area, which you would have to do anyway under normal breaching operations.

Oh, and I'm not an ex army engineer ... I just have their book!

[Bruce70]

I can not say for sure that I have seen engineers spot AT mines in CMBO. But very recently I did witness armoured units spot AT mines WITHOUT running over them. Two tanks (A Sherman and a Stuart) may have caught the edge of a mine field and detonated a mine causing no damage but not only that minefield but another further away was also spotted. There is no way the tanks could have run over a mine in that mine field.

Also I routinely see AP mines spotted by all sorts of units, not just engineers. It is not always possible to be sure none of the mines were actually detonated (not something I have payed particularly close attention to) but it would seem not judging from the lack of casualties.

I would tentativel suggest that in CMBO armoured units have some chance of spotting AT mines and infantry have some chance of spotting AP mines.

[Sergei]

Try to make a distinction between normal AT mines and Daisy chain mines. The latter are easy to observe with eyeball, but it seems that normal AT mines aren't spotted before you hit them (or they hit you, maybe).

[Andreas]

While I am not sure about AT minefields, there are numerous accounts of British infantry in NWE finding mines the hard way - by taking casualties from them. In particular the German Schu-mine (spelling?) was a nasty device, in a wooden box (i.e. not detectable other than by probing), with just enough HE to rip off the foot by the guy who stepped on it.

Clearing minefields to prepare deliberate assaults was often done the night before, or by specialised engineer equipment, i.e. flail tanks of 79th Armoured in the Commonwealth or mine-rollers in the Red Army. In the case of the flail tanks it was still a long process, since the speed was not high. I do not know the operating speed of mine-rollers, but guess they went faster. Red Army WW2 assault mine-clearing doctrine can be read up in current US Army FMs (forgotten the number, Kip would know it, it is the 1996 FM on handling the tank platoon). The M1 mine-plough is basically the modern version of the T34 mine-roller (picture). The doctrine is the same, to all intents and purposes.

Arguably, clearing mine-fields by hand is really not in the scope of the game. It is unfortunate that CMBO does not include flails. That does not mean that mines should be excluded though, since there are numerous examples of infantry units running into them and taking casualties. There simply was not always time to make sure there were no mines in the path of the attack. Infantry ran into mines, took casualties, and their COs probably cursed the fact that their superiors did not give them time to clear the mines. In CMBO, infantry runs into mines, takes casualties, and players curse BFC. Not much of a difference it seems to me.

Clearing mines in the rear areas was a major task, and it is my understanding that a lot of German POWs were used for that duty. Seems right to me, they just cleared up the mess they made in the first place.

[Clubfoot]

originally posted by ASLVeteran

This stated fact is definitely in dispute.

And I would contend that a few individuals contesting a fact does not make that fact "in dispute", it simply makes it's detractors incorrect. And I repeat: You can indeed spot minefields without stumbling through them. Run some tests.

[easy-v]

Originally posted by JonS:

IMHO, BTS' decision not to allow arty to destroy minefields, or wire for that matter, is right on the money

I have seen (and documented and posted on this board) that the engineers in CM clear minefields via HE (demo charge- see this thread for screen shot )

If a demo charge-armed squad can clear an AT minefield, then why not arty? Or is the "demo charge" actually modelling the bangelore torpedo? in which case, would a 1m wide breach through an AT minefield be sufficient to consider it "cleared"?

[ August 02, 2002, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: easy-v ]

[Olle Petersson]

While I'd love to have it a bit easier to spot mine fields, I also think it should be possible to create fake ones.

IRL minefields can be done in an number of ways.

- Quick with mines strewn in open, a la Daisy-chain.

These are relatively easy to spot, at least when they're new and you're in it.

- Hidden mines, no signs.

Difficult to detect, dangerous to own troops.

- Hidden mines but marked area.

Signs warn others about the presence of the minefield, but leave no clue about the location of each mine. Often combined with barbed wire.

- Marked area, no mines.

The ground is prepared to look as if mines are present, but they're not. Difficult to spot the difference, safe for own troops, can be combined with real minefields to cause confusion.

Cheers

Olle

[Conscript Bagger]

Originally posted by easy-v:

I think I remember the manual saying that is the case.

Probably not, but the game seems to consider minefields either "there" or "not there." Treating the entire 20m tile as cleared of mines is most likely a concession to playability (it beats having invincible minefields).

Incidentally, I recently re-read the chapter in Closing with the Enemy that deals with fortification assaults. In it, Doubler says that the American army, at least, had serious deficiencies detecting and clearing mines throughout the European campaign.