More potential Newbie questions ??

[Fire-at-Will]

Hello everyone - just been randomly searching for a game to add to the Xmas list and have come across this one. At first glance it seems really interesting!! My gaming history is quite diverse, driving sims, FPS's, WW2 strategy games - Close Combat 2 and 3 and the game currently residing on my HD is IL2 Sturmovik (Flight Sim). But I've never come across a game quite like Combat Mission. I have always had an avid interest in WW2, particularly on the western front - in fact 2 out of our last 3 holidays have been spent in the Normandy region of France very close to the Landing Beaches themselves (all by coincedence). So I guess my first question would be is how would you describe CMBO - is it like a 3d version of the Close Combat series and do you think I would enjoy it given the above info ? Also would you recommend going for this version or the newer version Barbarossa to Berlin ? How historically accurate is it and at what stage of Overlord does the sim begin ?

I'm sure I shall have many more (stupid ?) questions to come but will endeavour to search other threads for answers. Looking forward to reading your responses.

[Dook]

I can't speak to similarities or differences between CM and other games since (gasp!)I don't play other games. That may give you one indication of how good CM is. As for historical accuracy, I think most people on this board would agree that CM is the most accurate WW2 or combat simulation out there. The makers took great pains to ensure accuracy. CMBO begins in June 44 and lasts until May 45, so it covers everything from D-Day to the end of the war.

There is a still some debate over the merits of CMBO v. CMBB. CMBB is generally seen as more realistic and the stock graphics are nicer, but if you are primarily interested in the Western Front, you may enjoy CMBO more. Best solution, buy the bundle pack and play them both. Enjoy.

[Alsatian]

Fire-at-Will,

First off, great name.

About 40 scenarios come with the CMBO cd. Half are historical. The earliest one simulates British paras capturing Pegasus Bridge 5/6 June '44. The scenario editor in the game allows people to design their own scenarios, so the gaming community has created hundreds more scenarios that you can download off the 'net.

To get a flavor of all the scenarios, go to Scenario Depot. At that website you can browse these many scenarios.

Personally for you, even though all you need to do is take the Chunnel to Normandy (instead of the airfare someone like me would need), CMBO is still cheaper than the trip. If you were only a historian, with no interest in the Eastern Front, maybe than you could get away with only buying CMBO. But since you list your gaming résumé, you'll get hooked on the game play of CMBO and CMBB is inevitable. You might as well save time and money and buy the bundle pack.

Make note of my email (see profile) and look me up when you want to play some PBEM.

[BloodyBucket]

If you like Close Combat, you will play Combat Mission 'till your eyeballs fall out and your family leaves you. Get the game, do not pass go, do not consider any other options.

(I really like it).

[Mud]

The big differences between the Close Combat series and the CM series are (1) real-time versus turn-based/WEGO, (2) 3D view incl. camera control, (3) a squad-based level of abstraction, (4) no campaign system, (5) greater attention to detail and realism, (6) ability to add scenarios and MAPS.

(1) The "Close Combat" games are compressed real-time. Things happen faster than they should, so that battles finish in less than several hours, and you are giving orders while the action takes place.

The "Combat Mission" engine operates differently. Essentially, both sides (the CM engine does not yet support more than two players representing Allies and Axis) plot orders, then they are evaluated for a sixty-second interval. Both sides can study the results at their leisure (*), including watching replays from different angles and locations, et al, and plot new orders (or let old ones continue, if desired). This, obviously, scales to larger battles and more cerebral tactics than the _Close Combat_ system (e.g. a battalion (or two!) of infantry operating over several square km versus the 9 squads/6 vehicles limit of CC2) because you have TIME to study, plan and execute -- and the order system lets you plot waypoints, cover arcs (in CMBB), et al.

(*) In a TCP game, time limits can be set.

(2) Full 3D view combined with the non-realtime freneticism means that you can /look/ at the terrain, including elevations, and get screwed less by bad guessing wrt LOS.

(3) The CC series has, traditionally, modeled individual soldiers. CM models at the squad/team level. Individual soldiers aren't drawn (imagine having, say, over 1000 similar-looking textured 3D models running around... it'd be a control and graphics-card nightmare. This is another reason why CC games involve FAR fewer units), and the "soldiers" that represent a squad's location are abstract. As the overall commander, you're not so much concerned with individual men as you are with the big picture.

(4) There is no campaign. There is no "core force" that you build up and move all over an entire theatre. There are operations, which are prolonged episodic battles over a usually larger map, but nothing like a CC campaign. Again, the emphasis is on winning battles, not on any RPG-like building of experience et al.

Likewise, there is no "strategic layer". A scenario designer could reflect low supplies by giving you less ammo than normal, and in CMBB he could even make your men physically unfit (e.g. if they've been trapped in a Kessel for some time)... but you don't have to worry about maintaining landing zones or whatever.

(5) The "Close Combat" games focused more on pure gameplay and freneticism, rather than realism. For instance, that led to extremely armor-heavy/dominated battles in CC2 (9 squads/6 AFVs ?!) at rather short ranges, and sometimes rather strange tactics (e.g. purchasing Aufklarer as stealthy inexpensive tank-killers because of the guaranteed pair of Panzerfausts).

CMBO and CMBB in particular place more emphasis on accuracy. You need to spend time on recon -- heck, with Extreme Fog of War (EFOW) on you may fight and wipe out an entire enemy platoon without ever getting a solid ID (heh -- I had a squad once get 0 confirmed casualties during battle, but once the FOW was lifted at the end, it was revealed that they'd inflicted over 40 casualties on the faceless enemies that had tried to charge them from thick woods). You can't just take charge forth with armor, because AT guns actually matter more, et al. CMBB also takes into account rarity (unless you disable that option).

(6) CC traditionally had nifty maps from aerial photography, but it didn't let you add more. CM does -- you can design your own maps, historical or not. You can place as bizarre combinations of units as you like on them, just don't label such as historical...

[CombinedArms]

A few claims about CMBO and CMBB

1. Once I started playing CM I stopped playing other games. I love computer games but CM takes up all my time.

2. The level of realism and depth is unparalleled by anything else I've seen.

3. It's incredibly realistic, incredibly accurate historically, and incredibly fun.

4. Your life WILL change if you start playing this game--so watch out...

5. The ability to play any one of hundreds of historical scenarios--and to create your own--gives the game an ongoing quality that's just hard to describe to somebody who has never played it. You can follow favorite units across the map of Europe as they fight on the battalion level.

6. It's the best damn wargame ever devised. Just buy it....

[Green Hornet]

This may sound cliche' but Combined Arms described my opinions and observations regarding Combat Mission *exactly*. Amen! I couldn't have put it better.

I have a whole drawer full of PC games (driving, FPS, Strategy, etc...). I only play one - Combat Mission.

Only thing I would want to add is that I'm still amazed that Combat Mission never seems to get old. Its re-playability is staggering. Each situation, each battle is unique in it's own way.

Buy it. Buy both. You can't go wrong. You won't regret it.

[Fire-at-Will]

Great replies, each and everyone. On the basis of what you've all said I cannot believe I have overlooked this game for so long. However most of you say "buy it - you won't regret it" - I am already moaned at by the wife for spending too much time on that "damned computer" so the dilemma I'm facing now though is do I go for the Bundle pack or CMBO ??

Choices, choices !!

[Alsatian]

Since domestic policy requires diplomacy on your part, go ahead and make the concession of buying CMBO only. You won't miss CMBB and you can always buy it later.

Remember though, your wife has to know that you could have bought two games. That's the only way she'll understand what a sacrafice you're making;)

[Redwolf]

It is worth noting that a short fun CM game take substancially longer than a short fun CC game. Some people play CC because they dont' want to spend more than 15 minutes in an evening, and they don't get happy with CM.

This doesn't mean the game is bad or anything.

[easytarget]

I realize this has been brought up before, but I'd like to ask the current crowd for feedback regarding a newbie forum for CMBO/CMBB.

I'm new to wargames and frankly I've been drawn into this world by the 3-D implementation made possible by CM. For folks new to this genre it strikes me as potentially quite beneficial for a beginners forum to exist where newbies (and maybe a couple patient vets) can work through all the questions that vets would find obvious yet newbs still need answered.

On forums for games far less complicated than CM you commonly find a beginners forum (quake3 is about as brainless as it gets, yet quake3world has a beginngers forum). This allows new users that perhaps have just grabbed the demo to get their feet wet, not be intimitated, and actually participate in the forum (rather than grabbing the demo, getting stuck, feeling intimitated by the forums and bailing).

Again, I know this has been discussed before, sorry for bringing it up again. It's just that I'm new to this place (and wargaming) and it feels from an outsiders perspective like something is obviously missing w/o a beginners forum and I just want to understand why there isn't one.

[edraynes]

Originally posted by easytarget:

I realize this has been brought up before, but I'd like to ask the current crowd for feedback regarding a newbie forum for CMBO/CMBB.

I'm new to wargames and frankly I've been drawn into this world by the 3-D implementation made possible by CM. For folks new to this genre it strikes me as potentially quite beneficial for a beginners forum to exist where newbies (and maybe a couple patient vets) can work through all the questions that vets would find obvious yet newbs still need answered.

On forums for games far less complicated than CM you commonly find a beginners forum (quake3 is about as brainless as it gets, yet quake3world has a beginngers forum). This allows new users that perhaps have just grabbed the demo to get their feet wet, not be intimitated, and actually participate in the forum (rather than grabbing the demo, getting stuck, feeling intimitated by the forums and bailing).

Again, I know this has been discussed before, sorry for bringing it up again. It's just that I'm new to this place (and wargaming) and it feels from an outsiders perspective like something is obviously missing w/o a beginners forum and I just want to understand why there isn't one.

Actually, I think you'll find the folks here among the most experienced and intelligent, not to mention helpful bunch around. Search the forums for the various FAQ's and tutorial posts. I believe those posts, along with actually reading the quality manuals that come with the games will satisify your request for a beginners forum. I just recieved the games, and to be honest, the manuals alone are worth 2X what BFC is charging for the games. Hell, I'm a software developer and haven't seen quality manuals like this since NFL Challenge and DOS 6.2

Good luck and enjoy your new hobby (full-time job)

[easytarget]

edraynes,

i agree whole heartedly with your assessment of the quality of the manuals for the game

and i do find this and the tips and tricks forum useful, as well the search function

i was thinking more in terms of viewing it from BFC's stand point - if i had this great product that was bringing folks in from other game genres i'd want to make sure they gave my product a fair shake

to that end, i was thinking a beginners forum would be one way to make sure that new players got up to speed and demo users went on to purchase

no biggie though, i'll keep posting away here when i run into confusion - just thought i'd ask

all,

speaking of q's, i noticed in my first battle, takes place in paris (for lack of imagination i'm taking the battles in cmbo in the order they show up ), that my shermans on their own make a routine practice of firing smoke right in front of themselves when they run across german armor with a clear shot on them

is this a typical human strategy employed in armor battles where your armor is basically outclassed and out positioned by what your facing?

i'm not disagreeing with it, just checking out what's going on - because then of course it makes it impossible for the sherman to engage anything

i'm a clueless commander (i'm learning though) and rely on my AI to know better what to do than i do - so i was just checking out what this particular tactic was all about

[reinald@berlin.com]

I've been a longtime CC-player (since 3) and publisher of data-(sub)-mods for CC5, but when I downloaded the CMBO demo, I was hit by a truck.

Don't play anything else than CMBO for weeks. Should've gone for the bundle. Much more military detail to the game (target reference points, controllable offboard arty, infantry can embark vehicles ...). Everything CC gamers always dreamed about.

BUY!

[Mikeydz]

ftp://ftp.battlefront.com/pub/demos/cmbo/cmbodemo102.exe

http://www.battlefront.com/products/cmbb/demo.html

Best way to make you decicion is to try the demos of eith CMBO, CMBB, or both, and see if you have an interest in the game (YOU WILL) Then either buy only the one you are interested in, or buy the bundle pack and save some green. (about $17 if you factor buying them seperatly w/shipping costs in the US)