Iron Chef Sakai Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 During WWII (1939-1945) in the German army Soviet KV tanks had been seized in fights were applied. They were given the index of Pz. Kpfw.753 ®. Basically trophy KV tanks were used in the German army without modernization. Small amount of KV tanks were equipped with German command turrets I know BTS is including captured T-34's, but there has been no talk of captured KV tanks in use with the german army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted January 25, 2002 Author Share Posted January 25, 2002 During WWII (1939-1945) in the German army Soviet KV tanks had been seized in fights were applied. They were given the index of Pz. Kpfw.753 ®. Basically trophy KV tanks were used in the German army without modernization. Small amount of KV tanks were equipped with German command turrets I know BTS is including captured T-34's, but there has been no talk of captured KV tanks in use with the german army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 Becasue the numbers were very small. I researched this and contacted several authors, and numbers never exceeded 30. Very small number.... Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 Becasue the numbers were very small. I researched this and contacted several authors, and numbers never exceeded 30. Very small number.... Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted January 25, 2002 Author Share Posted January 25, 2002 Are you sure? That seems like a rather small number, i'm not saying your wrong, but did more then one reference say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted January 25, 2002 Author Share Posted January 25, 2002 Are you sure? That seems like a rather small number, i'm not saying your wrong, but did more then one reference say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by rune: Becasue the numbers were very small. I researched this and contacted several authors, and numbers never exceeded 30. Very small number.... Rune<hr></blockquote> I can also confirm with Rune that the numbers of KV1s captured and used by the Germans was insignificant. The most interesting of those that were however was a KV1 that had the turret replaced with one from what appeared to be a PzKpfw IV Ausf H. Mace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by rune: Becasue the numbers were very small. I researched this and contacted several authors, and numbers never exceeded 30. Very small number.... Rune<hr></blockquote> I can also confirm with Rune that the numbers of KV1s captured and used by the Germans was insignificant. The most interesting of those that were however was a KV1 that had the turret replaced with one from what appeared to be a PzKpfw IV Ausf H. Mace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted January 25, 2002 Author Share Posted January 25, 2002 Interesting, did the Soviets in turn ever use any captured gemran equipment? I assume of course they did, but what i mean is in numbers sufficient enough to be included in CMBB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted January 25, 2002 Author Share Posted January 25, 2002 Interesting, did the Soviets in turn ever use any captured gemran equipment? I assume of course they did, but what i mean is in numbers sufficient enough to be included in CMBB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtaskagain Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mace: The most interesting of those that were however was a KV1 that had the turret replaced with one from what appeared to be a PzKpfw IV Ausf H. Mace<hr></blockquote> That was also done with a Panther hull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtaskagain Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mace: The most interesting of those that were however was a KV1 that had the turret replaced with one from what appeared to be a PzKpfw IV Ausf H. Mace<hr></blockquote> That was also done with a Panther hull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 As far as I have seen the SU76i will be included in the game. It is based on a Pz III chassis with a Soviet superstructure and gun mounted on it in a fashion similar to the StuG III. The Stalingrad area is said to have been a PzIII graveyard/gold mine where most of the, at least, 200 vehicles produced were "picked up". Other than that I have no idea what BTS will put in. As for the KV-1 armed with the German 75mm L/43 it looks as though the gun was fitted with minimal alterations of the original KV turret. As I understand it this was a unique vehicle. The Panther on the other hand mounted the full Pz IV turret. M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 As far as I have seen the SU76i will be included in the game. It is based on a Pz III chassis with a Soviet superstructure and gun mounted on it in a fashion similar to the StuG III. The Stalingrad area is said to have been a PzIII graveyard/gold mine where most of the, at least, 200 vehicles produced were "picked up". Other than that I have no idea what BTS will put in. As for the KV-1 armed with the German 75mm L/43 it looks as though the gun was fitted with minimal alterations of the original KV turret. As I understand it this was a unique vehicle. The Panther on the other hand mounted the full Pz IV turret. M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtaskagain Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 Unfortunately the turret on the Panther was fixed due to the differences in turret ring size. Basically it was a better armored Stug. I'm not even sure if the main gun was functional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtaskagain Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 Unfortunately the turret on the Panther was fixed due to the differences in turret ring size. Basically it was a better armored Stug. I'm not even sure if the main gun was functional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mace: I can also confirm with Rune that the numbers of KV1s captured and used by the Germans was insignificant. The most interesting of those that were however was a KV1 that had the turret replaced with one from what appeared to be a PzKpfw IV Ausf H. Mace<hr></blockquote> An interesting beast. One would have to wonder what the point was. Do you have a reference/picture of said vehicle, out of a matter of interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mace: I can also confirm with Rune that the numbers of KV1s captured and used by the Germans was insignificant. The most interesting of those that were however was a KV1 that had the turret replaced with one from what appeared to be a PzKpfw IV Ausf H. Mace<hr></blockquote> An interesting beast. One would have to wonder what the point was. Do you have a reference/picture of said vehicle, out of a matter of interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42: Unfortunately the turret on the Panther was fixed due to the differences in turret ring size. Basically it was a better armored Stug. I'm not even sure if the main gun was functional.<hr></blockquote> Mmmm, you have proof of that? The only reference I've seen to that vehicle said it was a rebuilt Bergepanther, to which a new upperhull, taken complete from a Panzer IV was added, which would, I'd have thought meant the turret was fully functional as it was mounted on the original Panzer IV turret ring, not a Panther one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42: Unfortunately the turret on the Panther was fixed due to the differences in turret ring size. Basically it was a better armored Stug. I'm not even sure if the main gun was functional.<hr></blockquote> Mmmm, you have proof of that? The only reference I've seen to that vehicle said it was a rebuilt Bergepanther, to which a new upperhull, taken complete from a Panzer IV was added, which would, I'd have thought meant the turret was fully functional as it was mounted on the original Panzer IV turret ring, not a Panther one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mattias: As far as I have seen the SU76i will be included in the game. It is based on a Pz III chassis with a Soviet superstructure and gun mounted on it in a fashion similar to the StuG III. The Stalingrad area is said to have been a PzIII graveyard/gold mine where most of the, at least, 200 vehicles produced were "picked up". <hr></blockquote> At one point there was quite a bit of debate as to whether the Su76i actually existed in the numbers claimed for it. The usual photo of the vehicle which is displayed in most books was found to be a retouched one of a Stug III, identified by matching the background/patterns on the wheels, with the original untouched Stug III photo. This was detailed in AFV news over 15 years ago, if memory serves me correctly. The outcome of the debate was that, yes some vehicles were converted but the actual numbers might not have been as great as was assumed/claimed in many sources. I'd much rather, I think see the "Terror Tanks" of Odessa than perhaps the Su76i. [ 01-26-2002: Message edited by: Brian ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mattias: As far as I have seen the SU76i will be included in the game. It is based on a Pz III chassis with a Soviet superstructure and gun mounted on it in a fashion similar to the StuG III. The Stalingrad area is said to have been a PzIII graveyard/gold mine where most of the, at least, 200 vehicles produced were "picked up". <hr></blockquote> At one point there was quite a bit of debate as to whether the Su76i actually existed in the numbers claimed for it. The usual photo of the vehicle which is displayed in most books was found to be a retouched one of a Stug III, identified by matching the background/patterns on the wheels, with the original untouched Stug III photo. This was detailed in AFV news over 15 years ago, if memory serves me correctly. The outcome of the debate was that, yes some vehicles were converted but the actual numbers might not have been as great as was assumed/claimed in many sources. I'd much rather, I think see the "Terror Tanks" of Odessa than perhaps the Su76i. [ 01-26-2002: Message edited by: Brian ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Brian: An interesting beast. One would have to wonder what the point was. Do you have a reference/picture of said vehicle, out of a matter of interest?<hr></blockquote> You can buy a model of it at one of the sites listed on page 3 of the CMBB Model Contest thread. I believe it was called the Pz 753® mit 7.5cm KwK 40. Just looking at the model box top art, which was scannned and put on the site in question, it appears to be a KV-1 turret with a German 7.5/L48 gun and a Pz IV or Pz III cupola. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Brian: An interesting beast. One would have to wonder what the point was. Do you have a reference/picture of said vehicle, out of a matter of interest?<hr></blockquote> You can buy a model of it at one of the sites listed on page 3 of the CMBB Model Contest thread. I believe it was called the Pz 753® mit 7.5cm KwK 40. Just looking at the model box top art, which was scannned and put on the site in question, it appears to be a KV-1 turret with a German 7.5/L48 gun and a Pz IV or Pz III cupola. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 The use of captured armored vehicles (especially tracked ones) was rare for all nations. The main reason is that captured AFVs were usually damaged in some way. Even minor damage was often very difficult to fix. Heck, the Germans had a hard enough time keeping their own German made vehicles running during much of the campaign in the East! The reason is that these things broke down and broke down often. Not just in one or two ways, but in dozens of ways which would limit or outright remove its value as a fighting vehicle. As someone who owns quite a number of military vehicles I know a thing or two about the issue with parts. Most parts are not interchangable between vehicles. I don't just mean transmissions and engines, but also little stuff like $20 worth of ball bearings and racers. Most people can not conceive of a 30+ ton vehicle being inopperable because of a minor failing like this, but trust me... if the driveshaft cracks off because a needle bearing failed you ain't going NO PLACE (not that Moon and I know anything about this, nor about the 7 mile snowshoe trip that followed ). The problem was once a bunch of captured tanks were concentrated in one area they could be maintained at GREAT effort. This did happen from time to time, but generally only when domestic vehicles were not available. As soon as they were made available... the captured stuff was just run into the ground and abandoned when they broke down. All nations in CMBB will have access to some captured stuff based on evidence of "common" use. Meaning, more than 30 or so were used. But if you play with Rarity on... forget about ever seeing captured stuff in your Quick Battles Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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