King tigers

[VeTHero]

hi, im new to this game, can anyone tell me the counter for king tigers, im trying to play june '44 as americans in a custom game, it seems like king tigers are indestructible, anything i hit them with just richochets or "shell breaks up" i tried 90 mm anti air, 40 mm, m13 jackson tank destroyers, sherman jumbos, the only thing that managed to take them out was the 76 mm anti tank guns, isnt that kind of unfair? i mean you have to spend all you have just to get them and the tigers almost whipe them out i won with like 3 left (i used open map to test), if anyone has a counter for them besides "hitting a lucky 1 in 100 shot at their back" type strategy, please spill your guts, thanks.

[xerxes]

KTs are very expensive. You can do fine by buying vanilla shermans, avoiding the KTs and womping up on the axis infantry. A side shot from a zook can take out a KT.

[VeTHero]

hehe sorry that was november 44, thats my prob, its kinda hard to get around king tigers without them mopping up my entire force, what exactly is a vanilla sherman?

[Jagdwyrm]

Hellcats, but you will not be facing down the KT. Rather, you will need to maneuver and fire on the run at his flanks. Make sure you movements end in cover. And watch for any light vehicles supporting the KT, even 20mm can penetrate. May be best to try and dispatch his support first if possible.

[Jagdwyrm]

Also British 17 lb gun can kill it rather well from front if they have tungsten.

[ September 10, 2002, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: Jagdwyrm ]

[Mud]

A 'vanilla' Sherman is simply a normal, plain-Jane Sherman.

It sounds like you're engaging the King Tiger from the front, on a large open map. BAD. Frontal long-range engagements are its strengths.

Its strengths include:

- A good main gun that is powerful enough to matter at range.

- Pretty strong armor, making it tough to penetrate <i>at range</i>.

- It's somewhat less vulnerable to close assault than, say, many Shermans, because of the Nahrverteidgungswaffe (sp?).

Its weaknesses include:

- It's slow -- slow at moving, slow at rotating.

- It's expensive, meaning that it's unlikely to have brought many friends.

The Allied vehicles, especially the Hellcats, have manueverability and reaction time as advantages. Use them. The KT's main gun doesn't matter if your vehicles are shooting and scooting behind cover faster than the KT's turret can track you...

And if you must close-assault, strip off the accompanying infantry first just to make life a bit easier. As for the Allied guns and AT infantry, don't just open up because you've got a shot. Open up when you've got a /good/ shot.

If you want to see a NIGHTMARE scenario for a King Tiger, try a knife-fight like the bizarre bocage-maze scenario (1 elite KT vs multiple elite Stuarts (37mm!), some FTs, and a couple of AT guns).

[Beta1]

Like the guys said- dont engage it at range. 17 pounders will sort it out quite well but to make certain try and get it in the flanks. Also the turrets on these things are sloooowwwww. So engage with two guns/TDs from either side Ideally pop a TDout of cover on one side of the map so it sprints into cover again by the end of the turn then open up with a second positioned on the other side of the KT with the same trick - the turret will track to the first one but as soon as it gets behind cover it will change to the second and slowly rotate back. It can take so long to track between them it may never get a shot off. And one of them should be able to get a flank/rear aspect shot - if the TDs are greater than 90 degrees apart for the KT it cant be facing both!

[Commander]

I had a HQ unit destroy a King Tiger at 20 meters from the front once. When the crew bailed the HQ unit gunned all of them down while they were running. Just knowing where the KT is at all times can help you destroy them. Stay out of the line of fire if possible or be prepared to die! You have to shorten your engagement range and only take shots from the side or rear. Hard to do but definately doable.

[VeTHero]

jeese guys thanks so much, info really helped, ill come here more often, hehe

[VeTHero]

oh, by the way, this WAS a large open map so assaulting the tiger and getting behind it was difficult, thats why i wondered if there was anything the allies had that could destroy a king tiger from the front

[Soddball]

You really have two choices. In late-war combat, a Super Pershing will do it (standard Pershing won't). Ideally, however, you should pick the British Sherman Firefly. It really had one of the best guns of the war, and pairs of Fireflies will do an excellent job of barbecuing his King Tigers.

The American early-war kit just can't do the job, unfortunately.

[ryddle]

Depending on the context, I would also consider targeting a 81mm FO to land smoke around the KT. Then use your lighter and quicker assets and get into position. Of course, if he's in a keyhole position, or just exposed from one, he can reverse and this approach won't help too much. Again, depends on the context....

-r

[Beta1]

Bit of topic but there was an obituary in todays telegraph (UK) of a James Brown (Armored Irish Guards in ww2) who took out one of the first KTs in normandy in a vanilla sherman. Realising he hadnt a hope with the 75mm gun he charged the KT from 300m and rammed it, knocking out a track. Both crews abandoned their vehicles successfully excpet for the shermans forward M-gunner who managed to end up sharing a ditch with the KTs crew (although apparently after saluting the enemy he then legged it back to rejoin his team). Brown returned on foot to the rest of the tank group and returned with a sherman firefly which destroyed both the KT and the wrecked sherman.

So the question is wheres the "ramming speed" command in CM

[ September 12, 2002, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Beta1 ]

[Old Dog]

"Vanilla" Shermans work fine against KTs.

Just need to get in close on the flank or rear. (Both KOed King Tigers are in the pic, besides the one on the road, there's another on the hill mid-screen.)

This was in La Gleize scenario vs. the computer AI BTW. Dandy scenario.

When a straight-up face-to-face duel is not to your advantage, for pity's sake don't engage in one.

- Old Dog

[KG_Jag]

In case it's not clear, most players define a vanilla Sherman as one with a 75 mm gun. The 76 mm is better against tanks. The 100 mm is very good against infantry, but sorry vs. tanks.

[Bluecoat]

Appalingly - it must be mentioned the high ratio of Tanks that the Allies generally had to trade off to acheive a victory against some of the very well designed and utilised German Panzers.

Indeed- there are plenty of tactics mentioned in this thread to avoid such negative loss ratios - but at the end of the day - he has a bigger gun (kill you at 2k) and heaver armour (you need to hit him on the flanks to get a kill with anything less than 90mm).

[ September 17, 2002, 03:38 AM: Message edited by: Bluecoat ]

[Rodimzew]

a year ago i had a similar question posted...and found out that it is really hard to get these KTs. even manouevring will not lead to an easy kill if the opponent has a well understanding of the KTs advantages.

this unvulnerability is in fact a reason why i wanted to get CMBB...in CMBB there is a better chance to get these beasts with Stalin tanks...(122mm)..and it is possible to use a rarity factor which makes KTs more expansive...

[CombinedArms]

To sort of summarize & extrapolate on what's been said above:

The KT is the ultimate BIG MUTHA TANK. But every tank in CM has disadvantages. The KT's four disadvantages are that it's slow; its protection is weaker at the flanks (like any other tank); it has a slow turret (emphasizing flank weakness); and it's expensive to buy and costly to lose.

The #1 tactic with the KT is AVOIDANCE. Just stay out of it's line of sight and fight the enemy's other elements--which will be sparser because the KT is more costly.

By avoiding it, you may force your opponent to lumber it forward, into positions where you can gain advantageous flank shots. If you can't get advantageous flank shots, shift ground to continue avoidance, perhaps provoking still risker moves forward by your opponent.

If your opponent refuses this risk, then he's not using his best and costliest asset. If he does take the risk, he might lose that asset, which will cost him big at victory point time (a dead KT (even a regular, IIRC) is worth MORE than a big VL), so killing one counts as a major game-level achievement.

The best guns against the KT are the 17 pounder and 90 mm (in that order), though you can sometimes score a frontal kill even with the 76mm with tungsten. But even with these excellent guns, your best bet is to shoot with multiple guns at the flanks--preferably both flanks. The toughest board on which to fight a KT is a large, flat one with little cover. OTOH, the KT is least at home in woods or cities--so try to lure your opponent into those settings. As has been indicated, even a short 75 or zook can kill a KT from the rear.

With appropriate modifications, this avoidance-and-suck-'em-in strategy also applies to the other heavy German tanks. The heavy assault guns and tanks hunters, w/o turrets, are even more vulnerable to flank shots.

[Redwolf]

Interestingly enough, the CMBO King Tiger is not very prone to get gun damage, as opposent to, e.g. the Jagdtiger where it seems to happen 3 times or so more often.

I actually think that a flat open map is bad for the King Tiger since that ensures that of two racing forward tanks one get to its flanks.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by redwolf:

I actually think that a flat open map is bad for the King Tiger since that ensures that of two racing forward tanks one get to its flanks.

Interesting thought!

[VeTHero]

ha, no offense, but have you you guys ever played a custom game as follows.....1000 pts, clear, summer, june 44', on a flat, open, rural map, give the germans 3 kings tigers (regular level) and 2 wespe's.... the ONLY time I've ever won that battle is with 2 things, british 17 pounders, and fireflies, if you try to rush 3 king tigers on an open map (rushing with stewarts or regular shermies) they get wasted before the 3rd turn is up, i guarantee noone can beat a tiger on an open map without 17 pounders or fireflies, and even those things have a kill chance rated "low" and "rare".

[Jarmo]

While I wouldn't recommend agreeing to a game in a flat open map against germans with either "armor" or "unrestricted" shopping, if one wants to try rushing and flanking, one wants to try out the Hellcats.

That's the best weapon in CM against the big cats.

[CombinedArms]

If I was defending perhaps my preferred weapon would be the ATG version of the 17 pounder.

On a map with some scattered trees, perhaps a carload of Archers might also be effective in defense. I don't remember what they cost, but they can be fatal to KTs and they're a lot cheaper.

I have to confess I've never had much luck with Hellcats, though I'm sure there are some Hellcat virtuosos out there.

[Woofers]

Hellcats are definitely the go. The other thing that's important IMHO on a flat open map against the uber cats is a couple of 81mm spotters for smoke, as well as a sharpshooter or two to keep their heads down. If you can't find terrain for cover, then smoke is almost as good. It also means that you can dictate where the battle is going to take place, instead of being restricted by the lay of the land.