BTS: Soviet Nighttime Capabilities

[newlife]

okay, everyobody try this exercise. Get a nice attack scenario with Americans attacking Germans during the day. Setup your defence as the Germans for the day. Now go to the editor and change the time to night. See any new wholes in your defence? If your defensive choices included typical German units which have a long range advantage such as most of their AFVs, 88s, or MGs, your defence will not be as comprehensible. The Americans will still rain arty down on you regardless of day or night.

e.g. if I'm a frontline infantry unit, I may be glad to have that battery of 88's on the hill behind me, but I sure as heck don't wish for nightfall when those 88's won't be able to directly see the fighting.

[Grisha]

Steve,

Thanks for responding, and I really do hope you get to that paper. There is sense to what you say, but my impression is that the effects would be even more pronounced. We both agree that for the Soviets nighttime operations posed a chance at leveling the field of battle. This would tend to induce confidence in your average Soviet soldier who had already dealt with the daytime terror of the German Blitzkrieg. For the Germans, however, fighting at night reduces many of their offensive capabilities. Hence, most Germans would much prefer daylight for battle. This we both agree on as well. Now, compound this with the added condition that the Germans realize the Soviets see nighttime activities as advantageous and it could be reason enough for a further degradation on German capabilities from a psychological point of view(ie, morale) – "Hans, think about it. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain."

In any case, I’m still going to buy the game. No way you can get me not too. In fact, I was truly bummed to see that in one preview the release date was set to SUMMER 2002. Bother!

[ February 04, 2002, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Grisha ]

[MikeyD]

I've never seen a suggestion before to add a random 'lost' option for green troops fighting at night (perhaps more likely the more waypoints are in a travel line?).

An excellent idea, though the micro-manager types are destined to have a coronary trying to control CMBB! Every new suggestoin seems to take that much more control out of the hands of the player.

[Spook]

I think that your basic arguments are reasonable, Grisha, in trying to see "night-fighting effects" expanded, even in the tactical scope of CM. But considering also the vast scope of the East Front, the numbers of troops involved, the frontage, variations over the years in experience and tactics, pursuing "night-fighting" as some stock nationality modifier is not likely to carry much traction. Your arguments might serve better to see if something added in scenario editing is possible; if not in CMBB, then perhaps the future CM II engine.

After all, CMBB's evolution of "editable qualities" was demonstrated with BTS's earlier disclosure of "fitness" as a new modifying feature for foot troops.

[Battlefront.com]

Spook wrote...

Or to Steve, is night-movement something that might be on tap for changes in CMBB?

Not likely. Having troops get lost is a good suggestion... but I can tell you for sure that it isn't fair to do this. The reason is that troops get lost in bright daylight with maps and compases too So we get into that never ending cycle of make a tweak here, must make a tweak there. Good stuff to do if it can be done well (both simulation and gamewise), but this is not something we can toss together for CMBB.

Related to the above... well, if you are in favor of giving the Soviets and Germans different modifiers at night, then you should also be in favor of giving them different ones during the day Inverse logic at work here!

This only underscores why it is SO VERY important to not toss in modifiers willy nilly. And if they are nation specific, multiply that by 1000000

The other reason why Soviet night attacks probably were so devistating is that the entire Soviet doctrine was designed, from top to bottom, to get in close and personal with the enemy and wipe 'em out. Couple this with the Soviet's plentiful supply of full automatic weapons, and you got yourself a devistating combo.

On the other hand, German doctrine, from top to bottom, was about keeping the enemy out from the MRL as far as possible for as long as possible, then smacking into the attacker's flanks after the MRL is bypassed. This works fantastic in the day under the right circumstances, but is inherently ineffective at night.

I test which might show this off...

Make a night scenario with a thin Reg/Vet US defensive line in some woods. Then position 2-10 times that number of Con/Green/Reg Volksgrenadier SMG/Rifle troops a hundred yards away. Assign the AI to play the US side. Then Sneak the German troops up to the defensive line and see what happens. I bet you the US lines will vaporize.

Remember, the AI can not anticipate your movements to the degree an alert human commander would be. And that is part of the whole story here. The Soviets were VERY good at attacking with little to no warning. Partly due to their own skill, partly due to the rather poor German Intelligence capabilities. But unlike real life, it is absolutely impossible to get operational surprise in a CM battle, which gives the defender a distinct advantage that his real world couterpart might not (perhaps probably not) have had.

What would be realistic to code is some sort of Rarity for QBs which would restrict time of day and type of attack to be whatever was typical for that time period. The defender would not know ahead of purchasing what time of day or the weather, which might mean squandering all support points on some 88s which turn out to be useless for a night or fog battle. But we don't have time for this so it will be left up to the players.

Steve

[ February 04, 2002, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: Big Time Software ]