Mac graphics card recommendation

[Andreas]

Morning

Following Paul's thread about the upgrade I started looking on what to do with my machine. I currently have the 32MB AGP Radeon 7000 (I think) which is a fine card.

On Kelkoo I found a Radeon 9000 AGP 128MB for €129. Is that a good price for Euroweenies (everything is cheaper in the US, I know). Is the card decent with CM?

Thanks in advance!

Andreas

[ July 09, 2005, 03:10 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

[flamingknives]

I, too, would be interested in an answer on this.

[Andreas]

I am now considering the gigadesign 1.6Ghz single and the ATI 9000. Upgrade package for less than €450 together, that does not sound too bad.

[Schrullenhaft]

I recall in the past that there were some problems with the Radeon 8500/9x00 series on the Mac and CM. I believe that an ATI engineer fixed most of the problems (psychadelic colors) however smoke wasn't high quality and I believe the same was true about dust (I'm not sure about fog).

So for CM (CMBO, CMBB & CMAK) the Radeon 9000 won't look as good at the 7000 series you currently have. For future BFC titles it will be an improvement (under OS X.xx).

[Andreas]

Wasn't that only a PC problem?

[Schrullenhaft]

No, actually it was a Mac-only problem. Here's one of the Mac Radeon 9000 Psychadelic color threads. aka_tom_w was one of the users that had a problem. It took quite awhile, but an ATI engineer released a beta driver to BFC to check out. It fixed the psychadelic color problem, but the smoke graphics were of the "compatible" variety that looked quite blocky. Dust in CMAK also has the "compatibility" look.

I don't know if the January 2005 OS 9.2.2 Mac ATI Retail Update drivers address the same problems as the beta driver or if you need the beta driver to actually fix the problems (the beta driver is older, but it's hard to say how much older when it comes to driver development and releases).

A Radeon 9000 Pro is a nice step up from the 7000 series, I just wanted to warn you of the issues for the current CM series.

[ July 09, 2005, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]

[Pzman]

Also keep in mind, even a graphics card with a higher VRAM amount does not seem to effect the way CM down samples. It was found that once you hit the 32MB range it didn't matter anymore (for Macs).

[Andreas]

I am more interested in scrolling speed. More VRAM would help with that, right?

[Schrullenhaft]

"Scrolling" within CM ? I believe a more VRAM should help with that, but I'm not sure by how much. I think a bigger difference in CM performance would be seen with a faster GPU accompanied by faster VRAM. I believe that is the case of the Radeon 9000 Pro compared to the Radeon 7000 series, however I'm unable to quantify the difference for you. It may only be a small improvement.

[Andreas]

Well, with bigger maps and lots of doodads, the 32MB card seems a bit slow. But it may also be the processor.

Thanks for all the advice!

[Pzman]

I have found having a more powerful processor does not seem to matter much. I was thinking of upgrading my 32MB VRAM Radeon AGP card (7200) as well, but considering cost and no effect on downsampling in CM, I figured, why bother till CMX2 system specs comes out.

[Dawg Bonz]

Hi Andreas,

Thanks for all your fine CM scenarios and information.

Quick note off then to eat dinner & ‘Dawg-Walk’.

Just last week I got a ‘surprise gift’ = ATI - Radeon 9800 PRO MAC EDITION 128MB - 4X AGP!

Another surprise is I can’t get CM – BO – BB – AK to play on this 128MB card booted in OS 9.2.2? The problem is I keep getting the warning “Max resolution required is 800 x 600 ...” and then CM quits.

I also have an old ATI - Radeon MAC EDITION 32MB - PCI card. If I connect my monitor to this card, CM – BO – BB – AK to play great on this card booted in the separate OS 9.2.2 volume.

Solution: When I have time ... I switch cables and play CM on the old Radeon 32MB - PCI card. Smoke and all looks fine.

The more modern game titles look great on my 2001 G4 QS, 733MHz with the ATI - Radeon 9800 PRO MAC EDITION 128MB - 4X AGP. I am hopeful that this card will be enough for CMX2?

I suspect I will need an aftermarket upgrade accelerator. I am a computer novice but from what I read, think the 2MB - L3 cache cards are more critical for game play than maximum MHz cards? I am positive Sir Schrullenhaft knows the answer.

Off to eat and a then warm ‘cup of tea’.... Tea solves everything!

Hope this helps.

Dawg Bonz

[Schrullenhaft]

I suspect that the Radeon 9800 Pro Mac Edition may not support OS 9.x. Looking at the latest drivers ATI makes available ( January 2005 Retail ATI Update ) it doesn't list anything newer than the Radeon 9200. It's possible that 2D support works, but 3D RAVE support may not exist in the drivers/extensions. Thus the error about "800x600" minimum resolution - CM isn't recognizing a hardware-level 3D accelerator in the system.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a workaround for this. OS X will support the Radeon 9800, but of course the current CM series doesn't work under that OS.

As for CMx2, I believe that the Radeon 9800 Pro should work quite well with it. While there will be newer videocards out on the Mac by the time that CMx2 is released, it shouldn't require the horsepower of those cards to work properly.

As for G4 Accelerator/CPU Replacement cards. A larger L3 cache can help, but I'm under the impression that more MHz will be a more significant determinant of performance. The CPUs with L3 caches have less L2 cache than the CPUs lacking an L3 cache and the L2 cache is signifcantly faster than L3. I'd recommend a speedy CPU (512K L2 cache) with a good chunk of system memory (512Mb - 1Gb + ?). These are all guesses at this point, but I'm fairly certain that CMx2 will need more RAM than the current series (more detailed unit tracking and relative spotting will definitely add to the load).

[Andreas]

Thanks a lot again for all the advice, and thanks for the kind words DB.

It appears that the 8500 is no longer on sale. Since it is unclear if the 9000 could do the job on the current game, and the Mac situation in general is totally up in the air following the Intel announcement, I guess I will just get myself the processor upgrade, stick with the 7200, and spend the money saved on French red with a view to produce my own display of psychedelic colours in my head. Unfortunately I am thoroughly unclear about the CMx2 situation, and at this stage I just want to get a machine that does the job with CMBB/AK for the foreseeable future - I worry about CMx2 when we come closer to it.

All the best

Andreas

[Måkjager]

hi Andreas , i dug out my 32MB Radeon card ( its the exact same one found here Radeon video card

The reason i am using a Radeon 8500 is because it can run a Apple 23" LCD which i have. The 32MB Radeon cannot run the display but it works fine with my Apple 17".

I took out the Radeon 85000 and popped in the 32MB Radeon and fired up both CMBB and CMAK. Both look and behave fine as regards to hi-quality smoke and dust. Scrolling is also smooth enough combined with the 1.8Ghz cpu card.

Hope this helps.

Best

Måkjager

[Andreas]

Yes, a lot, thanks very much! BTW - you were the one who got me to shell out the ridiculous amount of money I bought the 32MB for.

[Måkjager]

Not my fault u Jerry's overlook bargins when they are actually bargins at the time and then try to buy things that are as scarce as hens teeth for next to nothing

BTW.. i found a June 1944 Op file with your name on it.. it was the one where u were defending against my Red attack ( small village / cliff-lake begind it ).It ended in my favour

Regards

Måkjager

[Andreas]

Ah well. I just have to send you another game which will not end in your favour then.

[Dawg Bonz]

“…. A display of psychedelic colours in my head…”

Andreas, There is medication for that you know? That elucidates some of your more creative CM scenarios.

Thanks for the ATI & CPU info Sir S. BTW: German-English translations for "schrullenhaft": crotchety, cranky? I got a D in French you know…

I think you are spot on with the lack of OS 9.x. - 3D RAVE support for the Radeon 9800 Pro Mac Edition … no drivers/extensions. I played a Battlefield 1942 Demo and was impressed with the visuals even with the slow 733MHz CPU. I do have 1.25GB SDRAM in my QS 733MHz.

Since I have the old ATI Radeon 32MB PCI card that works fine with all 3 CM games, I just need to spring for a decent LCD that can display 1280x1024 thousands (my preferred screen size for CM with the 32MB video card) and I will avoid the pain in the butt cable switch to play with the CM map editor.

As for G4 Accelerator/CPU Replacement cards… “The L2 cache is significantly faster thanL3.” Your explanation is most helpful Sir. S.

The recent posts in LONG LIVE G4 QS SP1.8Ghz! are most encouraging…..

“The Giga Designs 1.8Ghz G4 upgrade card works for me with no problems at all with the following. Beyond Overlord, Barbarossa to Berlin, Afrika Korps…. Måkjager.”

Wonder if the 2.0GHz Giga Designs G4 upgrade card works as well with CM?

My better ¾ just got her G5, a 20”, iMac 2.0GHz! Darn nice machine in OS 10.4.1 and with 128MB video card inside, fast and smooth. It is a little tough to explain to her why I need to use her work computer to play … “Space Lobsters of DOOM!” and such. Not to beat a dead stallion but… CMx1 … on this iMac… would produce a fine display of psychedelic colours in my head.

I am in the same vessel Måkjager and all … a temporarily unable to be found, complex of human attributes that manifests as consciousness, thought, feeling, and will, regarded as distinct from the physical body … in the nether world of change… looking for the Apple / Intel Mutant emergence to arrive on the pastime diversion scene (sounds of lighting and thunder inserted here) in all its 4.0+ GHz blazing glory… in about 3 or 4+ years. So an upgrade card makes perfect sense for a lost soul in association with a little French red alcoholic drink made by fermenting the juice of grapes …

Cheers,

Dawg off to be a chow hound…

BTW: We have plenty of Americans over in the Alps today sampling grapes and producing psychedelic colors while watching the Discovery Team “Lift Off” in La Grand Boucle.