Information needed, UK troops

[rune]

1 Dec 1942, Tebourba, Tunisia. Does anyone have the OOB of 2d Hampshires? I know there were Crusdar tanks there, along with American Lees, Shermans, and Stuarts. Anyone have a decent OOB?

Rune

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by rune:

1 Dec 1942, Tebourba, Tunisia. Does anyone have the OOB of 2d Hampshires? I know there were Crusdar tanks there, along with American Lees, Shermans, and Stuarts. Anyone have a decent OOB?

Not me, that much is certain.

However, Charles Messenger's "The Tunisian Campaign" (Ian Allan, 1982) says that thay had landed at Algiers only a week before and hurriedly sent up to the front, so I would imagine that they ought to be pretty much at full strength. What attachments they would have from 1 (Gds) Bde, though, I can't tell.

As far as I can make out from the above source and "An Army at Dawn", the action of 2 Hamps on the 1st of Dec was infantry vs infantry on both sides.

Blade Force's armour was in action in the same sort of area from the 25th on, fighting First Army's first tank action. As far as I can tell from Messenger, Blade Force consisted of the following elements:

17th/31st Lancers

B Sqn Derbyshire Yeomanry (armoured cars)

B Coy 10th Rifle Brigade

1 Bn Parachute regiment

US 1st/1st Armor (Stuarts)

1 x Battery 25-pdrs

1 x Battery 6-pdrs

1 x Troop 40mm Bofors

1 x Troop Royal Engineers

US 175th Field Artillery Bn (25-pdrs)

17th/21st Lancers are stated to have three squadrons, each with 6 Crusader Mk IIIs (6-pounder), 12 Valentines (2-pounder) and 2 Crusader CS (3-in how).

Not what you asked about, I know, but I hope it might be of some interest.

All the best,

John.

[rune]

John,

it helps, however I found three sources that state it was not a strictly infantry vs infantry battle. Combat Group Djedeida (german) consisted of:

1 X Para Inf Company

2 X Inf Companies

2 X AA Batteries

1 X Engineer Platoon

1 X TD Co (-)

1 X Heavy Tank Bn 501

[rune]

John,

it helps, however I found three sources that state it was not a strictly infantry vs infantry battle. Combat Group Djedeida (german) consisted of:

1 X Para Inf Company

2 X Inf Companies

2 X AA Batteries

1 X Engineer Platoon

1 X TD Co (-)

1 X Heavy Tank Bn 501

2X Tigers

2X Pz IIIL

"The attack was carried forward against enemy tanks in the olive groves five kilometers west of Djedeida. The field of fire was very limited in the thick olive groves, Enemy tanks could only be fought at close range. The Tigers were hit by General Lee tanks firing at a range of 80 -100 meters" From Sledgehammers. Strengths and Flaws of Tiger Tank Battalions in World War II, also confirmed in Tigers in Combat I. I found the British Infantry was backed by part of CCB, with Lee tanks of 13th Armoured Regiment (US).

So anything else you have on the 2d Hampshires will be appreciated, I don't think they were Royal at that time.

Obviously working on a scenario for this one.

Rune

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by rune:

John,

it helps, however I found three sources that state it was not a strictly infantry vs infantry battle.

There was certainly armour engaged at other times and by other units close by, and Messenger mentions combat between Blade Force (which lost six tanks) and Groups Luder and Hudel on the morning of 1st Dec. However, he states clearly that "in the afternoon of 1 December Fischer launched his frontal attack against the Hampshires. It was, however, made up of infantry only and the Hampshires were able to beat it off."

He mentions tanks being used against 2 Hamps the next day.

The 3rd of Dec was of course the day on which Major "Pat" le Patourel earned himself a Victoria Cross, awarded "posthumously", although it was later dicovered that he had survived, and he went on to become a Brigadier. Somehow, both Messenger and Atkins seem to forget to mention this. I can't find the full citation on the web at the moment, I'm sure it must be soemwhere, but if not I have it in a book.

Originally posted by rune:

So anything else you have on the 2d Hampshires will be appreciated, I don't think they were Royal at that time.

Obviously working on a scenario for this one.

A bit more on the Hampshires can be read at

http://www.pauljerrard.com/hampshireR/hamps2ndBn.html

which gives the battalion's starting strength at Tebourba as 689, a bit less than 90% of book strength and so probably what one would expect for a fresh full-strength unit with 10% LOB and a modest sick list.

The battalion seems to designate its rifle companies W, X, Y and Z instead of A, B, C and D.

All the best,

John.

[stoat]

Hard to find appreciable mention of Tebourba in the books I have, and those that do cover it focus more on the plight of Blade force, not of the Hampshires and Surreys.

From what I can gather, the Germans did not attack the Hamps with tanks on the first, but did indeed follow up in the next few days with armor, including Tigers, the among first to be seen in Africa.

[Kingfish]

They were reinforced with Matildas and Australian infantry coming in from the west.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

They were reinforced with Matildas and Australian infantry coming in from the west.

lol. It took me a while ... but I got it

[rune]

From Tigers in Combat I:

1 December 1942 First employment of 3 Tigers and 4 Panzers III of the 1./schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501 (Hauptmann von Nolde)starting from an assembly area 7 kilometers east of Dschedeidra bringing relief for own forces. (9 US tanks knocked out) The company-commander is killed in action. Oberleutnant Deichmann takes over and destroys 2 British tanks before he himself is killed by a sniper.

The after action reports abut fighting in the olive groves was from combat group Djedeida, and from the Book Sledgehammers.

On 1 Dec, Comba Group Hudel had no Tigers, Combat Group Koch had no Tigers untill the 3rd, Combat Group Luder had 1, but was not enagaged, amd Combat group Djedeidahad the 2 Tigers, but one had an engine failure.

This is certainly a case where the German records do NOT jive with the Allied records. According to An Army at Dawn, Nolde was killed on the 2nd, and indeed attacked the Hampshires on the 2nd.

So, I will go with the attack on the 2nd, assuming the Allied records are the correct ones. There were some Lees to the West on 2 December, and may be the ones the Germans hit in the olive groves. The majority of the tank fighting was to the North, along with the ill fated attack by 30 Stuarts.

Rune

[rune]

Hey John,

Still following this? Another question for you, found a map of the battle, 2d Hampshires was to the East of Tebourba, along with part of the US 2/13 Armoured Division. To their South was 1 ES which was the East Surreys, but defending the town itself was 11BR. I see they are listed on a map in an Amry at Dawn, but no mention of them fighting. Which unit was this?

Rune

[Kingfish]

The 11BR may be 11th Brigade of which the East Surreys were part of. IIRC, the initial drive on Tunis comprised 3 battlegroups - Blade force, the 11th brigade group and I believe the 36th Brigade group.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

The 11BR may be 11th Brigade of which the East Surreys were part.

I agree.

If it's the map on page 220, the map symbol labelled "11BR" has a brigade size indicator. You'll notice that 1 Para has been labelled "1BR", so I think it's just being used to mean "British".

All the best,

John.

[rune]

John,

I just sent you the main briefing to see if I got anything wrong. Since there IS a conflict between Allied and German records, I am going with semi-historical. Got the first draft of the scenario done, just have to make the side briefings.

Kingfish, let me know if you want to look the briefings over, ditto to you Jon.

Rune

[Kingfish]

Send me the scenario when it is ready for testing.

[rune]

Kingfish,

Sent...

Rune

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kingfish:

They were reinforced with Matildas and Australian infantry coming in from the west.

lol. It took me a while ... but I got it </font>

[JonS]

Now is good Rune.

Jon

[rune]

Sent Jon.

I note the difference betwwen the official German and official Allied records. All three briefings and the scenario sent.

Rune

[Mick15]

Rune

I do not think that the Hampshires had any armoured support closer than 4 or 5 miles away during their part in the Tebourba fighting. My sources also suggest John Salt is correct and that the 2nd Hampshire’s fight on 1st December was infantry vs. infantry.

I have this put together from Ken Ford’s Battleaxe Division and Vol III of the Regimental History of The Royal Hampshire Regiment. It ties in with the information you do have. Particularly interesting is Battle Group Dejeida having one mechanically sound Tiger and the Hampshires account of the ‘impervious tank’ of the 2nd December. I would suggest that the sources you and John have looked at have lost the fragmented sense of the fighting over large distances between Medjez el Bab and Dejeida 28th November to 3rd December.

This is a bit of an essay but I hope of interest. So from the sources mentioned :-

22/11/42 2d Hampshires disembark @ Algiers, subordinate to 1st Guards Brigade of 78th (Battleaxe) division.

28/11/42 reach railhead @ Soul El Arba and Medjez on 29/11.

Immediately on arrival they are ordered to relieve the Northamptons of the divisions 11th Brigade who had been written down attacking Djedeida on 28/11 and 29/11 supported by Honeys (? number) and "a few" Grant tanks of Combat Command B. The Northampton’s lost one complete company in Djedeida and sustained heavy losses in the others. The tanks available were reduced to a 'handful' and withdrawn.

Evelegh (CO 78th Division) at Medjez received news of the Northampton's repulse mid afternoon on the 29th.

The Northhamptons and East Surreys of his 11th brigade were both 'worn out and depleted' the third battalion (Lancashire Fusiliers) had been detached to Blade Force and "were not available".

Despite having just arrived 2d Hampshires got sent forward to Tebourba.

They moved forward the 16 to 18 miles to Tebourba that night in TCV. The move was W, X, Y and Z companies under command of Lt Col. Lee. One or two vehicles crashed and overturned in the rush forwards and a complete platoon from W company was lost from the strength. Otherwise the battalion appears to have been pretty well complete.

The Hampshires relieved the remnants of the Northamptons in the latter’s positions about 4 miles east of Tebourba and 1 to 2 miles west of Djedeida "beneath the ridge before Djedeida". They dug in two companies up and two in reserve. Y and X companies forward (left and right respectively) with W behind Y and Z behind X. battalion HQ in the centre. The position was in close country and the Hants men were supported by two troops of 25 pdrs of 496th battery, 132d Field Regiment and at least one battery of 6pdrs of the 72d AT Regiment.

The account I have goes on :-

”Daylight on 30th November revealed to Lt Col Lee just what his battalion had taken over. The positions were those the Northamptons had ended up in after their repulse of the previous day; they had not been chosen as a defensive line and were unsuitable and exposed. .... He was overlooked by thee ridge on his left beyond which the Northamptons had lost their A company.... To his right across the river further high ground looked down on the position .... the immediate vicinity was woodland and Olive groves giving good concealed approach to the position.

Lt Col Lee requested permission to withdraw towards Tebourba or launch another attack on Djedeida. Both were refused the latter as there was no available armoured support. He was strongly ordered to hold the current position.

Lee changed his dispositions slightly. X company moved to the forward edge of the woodland, Y onto the slopes of the ridge, W moved to occupy a central position around battalion HQ and Z in reserve. I have a sketch of this deployment.

The rest of the 30th passed with harassment from Stukas.”

The Germans appear to have spent the 'relative lull' organising the ad hoc battle groups already mentioned :-

Battle Group Hudel (~40 tanks), Battle Group Luder (~20 tanks), Battle Group Koch (~? Tanks) and Battle Group Djedeida (at least 7 tanks).

Only the last was involved in the attack on the Hampshires on 1st December. Groups Hudel and Koch were sent well north of the Hampshires position and were directed well North and North East of Tebourba. Battle Group Koch was sent south of the Medjerda river. This was a classic pincer movement and if reaching the Tebourba gap (the defile between Tebourba and Medjez El Bab) would trap the british infantry in an east of Tebourba. Only battle group Djedeida attacked the Hampshires.

Battle Groups Hudel and Luder ran straight into Blade Force and the Americans CCB. Battle Group Koch ran into D company East Surreys holding the bridge at El Bathan. These fights were between 4 and 8 miles away from the Hampshires positions. I think in those sources with a larger view this has been lost and the tanks of Blade Force The Hampshires certainly knew the enemy had moved past them on both flanks and were aware of fighting to the rear. On the 1st December only infantry attacks were launched on the Hampshires throughout the day and with aggressive patrolling and infiltration into the night.

2nd December saw the main attack on the Hampshires. At dawn infantry and 7 tanks attacked the position. The tanks moved directly on Y Company on the more open ridge. These were engaged by field and AT guns, two set ablaze and two immobilised. “One tank seemed impervious to all solid shot and closed on Y Company’s right hand platoon. Nothing more was heard of this platoon.” Another tank started shelling the battalion HQ forcing Lt Col Lee to pull his command post back to Z company. X Company was being heavily attacked by strong infantry forces who had infiltrated the woods. Mid morning “more tanks entered the fray and started picking off the AT guns one by one” and “Just after 1200 X Company was overrun: just six men managed to get back to battalion HQ.” Lt Col Lee did have success with counter attacks through the woods including – “Lt. Freemantle and his men put in a bayonet charge that killed or wounded over forty of the enemy, the rest being put to flight”. The fight then petered out possibly (my guess) as it had moved into the close wooded terrain less suitable for the few tanks and because of the fierce counterattacks. The terrain was described thus – “His .. (Lt Col Lee) .. positions were a series of slit trenches in the very thick country with little field of fire. A more unmilitary place to be you could not imagine. You could not see more than fifty yards”. No real respite for the Hampshires however as the Stukas returned.

That night 2nd /3rd Lt Col Lee pulled the Hampshires back two miles to the defensive position between point 186 and the Medjerda he had wished to occupy two days before. There were still some AT guns and 25pdrs with the battalion. There was fighting throughout the 3rd during which time contact with brigade was lost and the Hampshires were surrounded. Their postion becoming most precarious when the high ground of point 186 (held by elements of the East Surreys) was lost. The VC won by Major Le Patourel mentioned by John Salt was won when he and four volunteers attacked automatic weapons placed on point 186 that were causing great suffering to the remaining gunners and Z company. By the time darkness fell there were 10 officers 200 men and one 25pdr. The 25pdrs firing over open sights had accounted for at least another 5 tanks that day. This is from the battalion history for that day :-

“All morning the enemy was held off by small parties of men often at the point of the bayonet. At last, however, enemy infantry, supported by tanks, succeeded in breaking through on the extreme right and got round behind W company’s position. Captain Waldron drove them off with a bayonet charge … Z company now reduced to one weak platoon grimly held off the enemy in the main position. All day the gunners had been fighting magnificently. They had knocked out five tanks with 25-pounders, and all targets had been taken on over open sights. By 5 o’clock in the evening only one gun remained in action.”

The night of the 3rd Lt Col Lee made the decision to breakout. They broke through the cordon with “heavy loss” and reached Tebouba to find it long abandoned by friends. The Tebourba gap was now held by the enemy and the remaining Hants men split into small groups to best make the many miles back to Medjez. Two days later at Medjez the 2nd Hampshires mustered 5 Officers and 194 men including the LOB from 29/11.

Edit

Sorry I meant to add - I would be interested in play testing the scenario also if that is OK

[ January 27, 2006, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Mick15 ]

[rune]

That matches msotly with what I have. The differences from the German account, was there were only 3! German tanks and one of them was the havy tank. [trying not to give away spoilers]. The Germans attack went to either side of point 186 to envelope it, and they did run into some American Lee tanks in the olive groves near the Point. The German account has a point blank fight, with the heavy tank taking some hits, but none penetrated. The map on page 41 of Sledgehammers, definitely has 2/13 of the Americans [Lee tanks] in that position. No other German Combat Group was near there. Again, a difference in the records and I note that in the briefing. I took a middle of the road approach.

One thing Jon brought up, the AAR I have mentioned they had 2 pdr and 6 pdr guns as anti-tank. What do you show for the at guns?

Forwarding you the first draft.

Rune

[Mick15]

Rune

Something of a guess but I think both were present. 72nd AT regiment certainly had 6pdrs. I believe the infantry battalion establishment at this time had 2pdrs at least attached. An account from Major Smith of the East Surreys of fighting in Tebourba finishes -

"At this period we only had the 2pdr anti-tank gun which was not up to the task (of dealing with Mk III and Mk IV panzers). However the battalion was supported by one troop of 6pdr A/T guns" (64th - Glasgow Yeomanry)

I took the we to mean the East Surreys. I don't have a reliable TOE for these '42 battalions though.

[Mick15]

And going on...

After a quick google search the battalion establishment at this time did include 4 A/T guns (Feel I should have known that). Battalion history mentions 2pdrs in training just before leaving the UK. So reasonable grounds for going for the clear account of the 6pdrs of 72nd A/T regiment plus up to 4 x 2pdrs and prime movers on the 2nd Hants establishment. Circumstanial evidence being - as John Salt pointed out - the 2nd Hants numbers reported moving to Tebourba on the 29/11 were close to full establishment (less LOB).

[Andreas]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

The 3rd of Dec was of course the day on which Major "Pat" le Patourel earned himself a Victoria Cross, awarded "posthumously", although it was later dicovered that he had survived, and he went on to become a Brigadier. Somehow, both Messenger and Atkins seem to forget to mention this. I can't find the full citation on the web at the moment, I'm sure it must be soemwhere, but if not I have it in a book.

You have not been trying very hard then?

On the afternoon of 3rd December, 1942 the enemy had occupied an important high feature on the left of the company commanded by Major Le Patourel. This officer then personally led four volunteers under very heavy fire to the top in an last attempt to dislodge several enemy machine guns. The party was heavily engaged by machine gun fire and Major Le Patourel rallied his men several times and engaged the enemy, silencing several machine gun post. Finally, when the remainder of his party were killed or wounded, he went forward alone with a pistol and some grenades to attack the enemy machine guns at close quarters, and from this action he did not return.. Major Le Patourel's most gallant conduct and self sacrifice, his brilliant leadership and tenacious devotion to duty in the face of a determined enemy were beyond praise."

Seems pretty complete to me?

Royal Hamps VCs

Google Search:

"victoria cross le patourel"

All the best

Andreas

[John Kettler]

rune,

I own the U.S. 1st Armored Division's battle history. If memory serves, Tebourba's covered in it, and I even recall a detailed diagram of what German AFV was killed and where. Would you like me to check to see whether there's anything there which might be useful to you?

Regards,

John Kettler

[rune]

John,

Confirm where 2/13 was on 2 Dec. I have two maps saying they were just a little west and slightly North of Point 186, which would be NE of the town itself. The rest of CCB was coming up the road to the west, and the remains of Blade Force to the North and NW.

Rune