Mortars do the darndest things...

[yoursweatersux]

So I was playing a scenario (I forget the name) as the Germans and I happedn to have a 50mm mortar about 400M from some tanks. His max range was 500M and he had a good line of site. So why, then, would he only fire a single round per turn? He would shoot one off when I ordered him to but then completley stop. I've never had that happen before. Consequently, I was forced to a draw in that scenarion due to his inability to slow advancing troops with some fire.

[Melnibone]

The AI has decided that firing 50mm mortar at a tank is a waste of ammo as it has a negligible probability of harming the target.

[stoat]

If you want sustainded fire, use area fire, and the mortar will fire all turn, morale and ammo willing.

[Fußball]

You just have to love knocking out carriers and halftracks with mortars. And occasionaly the odd armored car.

Tschüß!

Erich

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Melnibone has it right. The TacAI decided against it as a futile action. It doesn't mean mortars won't attack tanks, they just won't attack tanks where the hit will not affect the target. Should you have a mortar on hand that can penetrate top armour it will happily blast away. I have had some success KO-ing PzIVs with 3 inch mortars.

As stoat rightly puts, if you absolutely must you can use area fire but if the tank moves your fire will not shift accordingly. But really, why fire at a tank you can't hurt anyway? To button the tank? You would be better off tasking an MG or infantry with that job.

[yoursweatersux]

Ahhhh makes sense now. Thanks guys! Actually, a few turns earlier he had a direct hit on a halftrack and blew it to smithereens. I the mistakenly assumed he could take on some armor. Why, I have no idea. Damn, some of you guys are pros at this stuff.

Anybody up for a TCP/IP game? I haven't played multiplayer yet so you might need to take it easy on me...

[Nemesis Lead]

Another reason for the slow rate of fire could be dust. Dust blocks LOS and you lose your target. Your man will then not re-acquire a tank target. Dust will also slow your fire at area targets.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Nah, the TacAI always fires one round at the target because you ordered it, guessing you know what you are doing. And then things better of it.

[walpurgis nacht]

50mm mortar vs tank is certainly an act of desperation-----but you can get a lucky gun damage or immobilization.

The way to do this to override the AI is:

-target the tank with mortar (red line)

-hit shift + V (remove vehicles)

-with the red target line as your guide, overlap and "area target" pricisely over the red line target (orange line).

Bingo.

[yoursweatersux]

Oh yeah, believe me, it really was an act of desperation. Thanks for the advice, btw

[MeatEtr]

Originally posted by walpurgis nacht:

50mm mortar vs tank is certainly an act of desperation-----but you can get a lucky gun damage or immobilization.

The way to do this to override the AI is:

-target the tank with mortar (red line)

-hit shift + V (remove vehicles)

-with the red target line as your guide, overlap and "area target" pricisely over the red line target (orange line).

Bingo.

Well put, i was just going to mention this. Btw, is it possible to score a gun damage from mortar? I wasn't aware of this, I surely haven't seen it.

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

To button the tank? You would be better off tasking an MG or infantry with that job.

I certainly disagree. Although it mostly depends on the circumstances. Using a mortar crew to button up or even possibly(if lucky) bag the TC is worth the ammo. Just keep the mortar out of LOS and use a HQ to direct fire. That way, nobody is exposed and you don't have to reveal the positions of infantry or an MG.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by MeatEtr:

is it possible to score a gun damage from mortar? I wasn't aware of this, I surely haven't seen it.

Yes. In both BB and AK, though in AK the chance of gun damage/immobilization is increased.

[Zalgiris 1410]

I agree mortars certainly can inflict gun damage and immobilize tanks, although I must admit that I've never seen a 50mm mortar do either. Furthermore I would be extremely surprised if such things resulted from 45-50mm mortar hits upon tanks. Has anyone actually seen this happen?

I wouldn't expect a 50mm round to damage a 75-76.2mm tank gun, even with a hit directly landed upon it! :eek:

IME I find that even 50mm mortars seem to be high priority targets for those tanks yws is trying to target fire at and I would say that get off one round a minute is the most that I would expect an exposed crew to do since they would normally been very quickly surpressed each minute if not knocked out which is what I would usually expect to happen under the ercumstances. Hence the mention by MeatEtr of employing the technique of using a HQ team in spotting for an out of line of sight mortar.

[yoursweatersux]

I like that HQ tactic, it's pretty slick. I truly AM a combat mission amateur.

[Sailor Malan]

Originally posted by yoursweatersux:

I like that HQ tactic, it's pretty slick. I truly AM a combat mission amateur.

You should only rarely if ever expose mortars - it just isn't necessary. 1 HQ can control all the mortars with which it can maintain full command (red contact line not black). Position a 'spare' hq with resonable LoS, and hide it. Put the mortars in command from that HQ, but out of LoS of any likely targets. When target you want to hit appears, unhide HQ, check Los (From HQ, NOT mortar). If OK, order mortar to target enemy. If all is ok, it will barrage the target. If something is wrong (HQ not got LoS to target, or command to mortar), it will lose the target line. This works for any on board mortar.

Counter tactic is, of course, to watch for any possible HQ unit that pops in to view just before a mortar barrage opens - small barrage = possible HQ doing the above, big barrage = possible FO. Either way, you might want to consider encouraging him to keep his head down! Tricky, and you might end up waisting ammo, but then again if on a vantage point, at very least is giving your opponent a borg spotting feed!

I usually only fire direct at extreme range (when incoming fire is unlikely to get me, i.e. no big guns around), or when things are starting to go pear shaped! By far the best use for spare HQ without morale or other useful bonuses, and sort of historically accurate for anything bigger than a platoon 2" or equivalent mortar (no self respecting weapons platoon wants its 3"/81mm being shot at - although 'design' usage would most often be as OBA). Having said which the true WW2 grogs can correct my over simplifed generalisations! (Being only a 'general purpose', or 'jack-of-trades' grog myself )

[JasonC]

Yes mortars should be used with HQ spotters, but no you don't have to group all the mortars under one HQ. It is better to have only a single 81mm or 82mm mortar to an HQ, or 2 of the smaller mortars. US 60mm can be used alone or in pairs. This gets you mortar spotting from a lot more HQs, able to see a lot more places. And to hit each with enough punch to pin or break a single point target (gun or MG for example), which is what you really want the mortars to do for you.

The slower mortars should also get MG teams alongside their spotter HQ, and FOs, snipers, or ATRs can come along as well. These form heavy weapons groups for ranged fire, at 300m to 500m ranges. Which can hurt any target type. Fast mortars (medium speed or better) can be used either with such dedicated heavy weapons groups or trailing the HQ of ordinary infantry leaders. Then they pin whatever unit the squad infantry of that platoon are currently focused on killing, letting them close in.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Zalgiris 1410:

I wouldn't expect a 50mm round to damage a 75-76.2mm tank gun, even with a hit directly landed upon it! :eek:

I've knocked out pzIVs with 50mm mortars before. Yes immobilization and gun damage are possible. Though as I mentioned this is rare and should be considered an act of desperation.

[Wicky]

For using an HQ as a spotter don't hide him within reasonable cover, as he can't use his binos, rather give him a short cover arc in the direction of the 'action'. This attitute will enhance his spotting ability, prevent him shooting, not give him self away and therefore free from retaliation and able to spot unimpeded.

[ January 07, 2006, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Wicky ]

[Other Means]

Originally posted by Wicky:

For using an HQ as a spotter don't hide him within reasonable cover, as he can't use his binos, rather give him a short cover arc in the direction of the 'action'. This attitute will enhance his spotting ability, prevent him shooting, not give him self away and therefore free from retaliation and able to spot unimpeded.

Been wondering about this recently. A cover arc makes the unit concentrate in this area, does it not also *reduce* spotting outside of it?

[Zalgiris 1410]

Originally posted by Other Means:

Been wondering about this recently. A cover arc makes the unit concentrate in this area, does it not also *reduce* spotting outside of it?

Absolutely no, the coverred arc only tells the unit not to fire outside the coverred arc without effecting its vision or spotting ability farther beyond say a deliberately very short coverred arc demarcation line. So no in the direction it is facing spotting is not reduced outside or beyond the coverred arc zone.

[Wicky]

I just give HQs a 180º max arc facing forward (Holding CONTROL while setting a covered arc sets it to 180 degrees), minimum distance, and just hope nothing comes up behind them or from their periphery. Even if the HQ isn't spotting I generally always give the HQ an arc to keep them out of firefights unless absolutely necessary.

From the manual

Spotting - Hiding units also spot worse, as their main task is to keep their heads down, not watch for the enemy. Spotting is always worst to the rear of a unit,

..if the unit has binoculars (greatly enhancing its long range spotting and identifying abilities),

Cover Arc -This very important command tells units which way to look for targets, and what ranges they are permitted to fire from. Be careful using it - units with a covered arc will sometimes ignore or possibly not even see threats from other directions.

Originally posted by Other Means:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wicky:

For using an HQ as a spotter don't hide him within reasonable cover, as he can't use his binos, rather give him a short cover arc in the direction of the 'action'. This attitute will enhance his spotting ability, prevent him shooting, not give him self away and therefore free from retaliation and able to spot unimpeded.

Been wondering about this recently. A cover arc makes the unit concentrate in this area, does it not also *reduce* spotting outside of it? </font>

[yoursweatersux]

Hm question, what button do you use to assign command of units to different HQ's?

[JasonC]

There isn't any button, you just change how far the HQ is from the mortar. The closest HQ in range gets the command. So just move the HQ you don't want spotting, out of command distance.

[Other Means]

Originally posted by Wicky:

{snip}

From the manual

Spotting - Hiding units also spot worse, as their main task is to keep their heads down, not watch for the enemy. Spotting is always worst to the rear of a unit,

..if the unit has binoculars (greatly enhancing its long range spotting and identifying abilities),

Cover Arc -This very important command tells units which way to look for targets, and what ranges they are permitted to fire from. Be careful using it - units with a covered arc will sometimes ignore or possibly not even see threats from other directions.

{snip}

Does this mean I'm correct in the supposition? It says directions but not ranges but nevertheless suggests it.

I've always used the short 180º arc myself but lately I've started to think it's wrong.

Anyone done any actual tests?