Anti tank Guns.Why bother?

[gautrek]

Is it just me.

I have a major problem with anti tank guns.Apart from the usual one of them kiling my tanks.

My problem is when i get given them when i am attacking.

It goes something like this.

Move forward with my infantry and armour.locate the enemy.

Think maybe its about time to get my AT guns set up.So i drive them into position.Unlimber them and get them set up.Only to find they can't bleeding well see anything.So its then a case of load them back up and drive them to somewhere else.

Unlimber them again(Checking out the LOS before hand).Wait for the setup up time to finish so i can unleash them at his armour.

And then bang they have been spotted and blown up.

Or they then spend the rest of the game sitting there with nothing to shoot at as i have bleeding well put them in the wrong place again.And i can't be arsed to move them again.

So to stop these situations happening i seem to spend most of the game driving round with them behind vehicles not daring to place them as i know i will get it wrong anyway.

So this is a plea to scenario designers.For my sanity please don't bother giving me any anti tank guns when i am attacking.

As i can't cope with them.

Give me another tank or something similar.Because i can at least move that around with ease if its in the wrong place.

[JonS]

use it as an area-denial/overwatch weapon, rather than as a point-attack/specific-target weapon.

[juan_gigante]

Every so often, on a hilly map, you get a high hill you can set up on and bombard a whole bunch of the map. When on the attack, though, I really do prefer SP guns. More resilient, more mobile. But often in scenarios, you don't have much of a choice.

[dieseltaylor]

Number one use is to push them through woods so thta you do not get the transport blown up delivering them to the scene.

And of course they can sit nicely there until something turns up, or be aggressive and put them into an area overlooking your enemy.

You should always try and get someone to spy out good sites for your guns as a first priority - not think about it when your infantry has passed into the battle zone.

[juan_gigante]

Another thing is that a 20mm Flak will move faster than a 150mm Infantry Gun. Size does matter to some degree when it comes to mobility, IIRC.

[dalem]

Originally posted by JonS:

use it as an area-denial/overwatch weapon, rather than as a point-attack/specific-target weapon.

I am loving them as the Brits in "Bieville", that's for sure.

And yeah, I can say that in the few offensive situations I've had the opportunity to use ATGs in, I pick a place where they can survive to be set up and be ready to stop an enemy counterattack.

They may never get used, but nothing says you have to pull the lanyard on every piece you're given, right?

-dale

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by dalem:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JonS:

use it as an area-denial/overwatch weapon, rather than as a point-attack/specific-target weapon.

I am loving them as the Brits in "Bieville", that's for sure. </font>

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by dalem:

They may never get used, but nothing says you have to pull the lanyard on every piece you're given, right?

I'm sure it's a rule of nature that in fact you DO have to pull the lanyard on every piece you're given. :cool:

But then you knew that, didn't you!!

[JonS]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dalem:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JonS:

use it as an area-denial/overwatch weapon, rather than as a point-attack/specific-target weapon.

I am loving them as the Brits in "Bieville", that's for sure. </font>

[Guest Mike]

Towed guns are fun on the attack - because no-one ever expects them!

[Zalgiris 1410]

A smoke screen is another good answer to deploy ATGs to good firing positions and for waiting out their set up delays as well.

[eichenbaum]

Depending on the kind of battle; AT guns are very useful when your opponent conducts a counter attack with armor. Or use them to turn buildings into rubble.

I remember a battle where I blew up a building on my own side of the map so I could have a nice overwatch position. When the dust cloud disappeared the gun appeared and knocked out 2 heavy tanks from the opponent. My opponent didn't understand what was going on until he saw his armor burning in the field. Later on the rubble gave an excellent cover for HMG to.

[hoolaman]

Originally posted by Mike:

Towed guns are fun on the attack - because no-one ever expects them!

Their chief weapons are surprise, concealment, AP shot and...

Sorry.

[gautrek]

Well it seems like it just me then.

Maybe its my stupid fault for not being able to decide where to put them.I will have to work on this methinks.

The only plus point is that my normal mate i play against is as bad as me.

You should always try and get someone to spy out good sites for your guns as a first priority - not think about it when your infantry has passed into the battle zone

God you lot are a bit serious about this game aren't you.

They may never get used, but nothing says you have to pull the lanyard on every piece you're given, right?

I think its a waste if i don't get every piece of equipment or men at least injured or blown up by the end of the game.I think its gamey hiding things so they count towards the score.

Or use them to turn buildings into rubble.

My kind of player.I think buildings are only placed on maps for target practice anyway.

But seriously i think i may have been trying to much with them.Maybe i should work more on the area denial idea.

thanks any way guys.

[Michael Emrys]

Since you play against a live opponent who you say is as bad as you, you might try Rommel's old trick (actually, he didn't invent it, but he used it successfully on more than one occasion). This probably works betteer in a meeting engagement than an attack, especially if the flag doesn't count for many points, so you are both out for blood.

Advance into contact with your armor leading and your limbered ATGs following. When you have located the enemy, delay him with your armor as long as it is prudent while your ATGs set up in a concealed position. Then, when the ATGs are ready, make it look like your tankers have had enough and are on the run. Your opponent, thinking that he's about to score really big now, gives chase and runs afoul of your ATG trap, losing tanks to flank shots. Meanwhile, your armor has re-entered the battle, preferably from the opposite flank, and finishes annihilating the enemy armor that has survived the ATGs. And since an ATG with its vehicle is usually cheaper than a tank, you can afford to buy lots of them to kill lots of enemy tanks with.

Michael

[juan_gigante]

That's a really good trick. I know I would probably fall for it. On sort of a side topic, I notice that the Americans have a pretty bad selection of guns. I assume in many cases they would have SP guns, but after so many monster guns in CMBB I was a little shaken when I did my first defense QB as an American and saw the puny selection. While they'll get the job done from the flank or on small tanks, I missed having those monster caliburs I had long enjoyed.

[Guest Mike]

They get eth 57mm, which is pretty much all you need - it'll KO anything from the front at typical CM combat ranges except a Panther or Tiger 2, and it's dirt cheap.

Add to that bucketloads of infantry with automatic weapons and bazookas at every street corner and it's a nightmare for the Germans!!

[Zalgiris 1410]

This tactical concept that Micheal Emrys describes was known as Sword and Shield. I've tried to emulate it on occations but I find that my tanks get KOed to much for it to work or the enemy tanks don't follow up as expected, something always seems to go wrong for me!

Anyway, I'm better with just using reverse slope positions, but I haven't tried destroying buildings to create a field of fire for hiding ATGs yet, but it sounds good, especially against an opponent that doesn't suspect what you really are up to.

I also think IMHO though that the Sword and Shield tactic would best be used on large enough battle maps and given enough time, especially in dusty CMAK moreso than in CMBB where I have mostly so far tried to employ this kind of ruse. :cool:

Mike the US 12.7 HMGs are a good counter to this kind of tactic being used against one's self, they penetriate the German ATG shields and quickly force even crack crews to become pined and suppress their fire thus sparing your tanks a lot of effective incoming AT-AP rounds.

[ July 26, 2005, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by gautrek:

Is it just me.

I have a major problem with anti tank guns.Apart from the usual one of them kiling my tanks.

My problem is when i get given them when i am attacking.

Geez, Gautrek...how to put this? They're best on defense?

I mean, really. What am I supposed to do with mortars at night that have a minimum range of 100m, and visibility is 80m? And I have tons of them!

I guess what you do is: COPE, YOU BIG BIG FREAK!

I mean, really. You've been around here for ages. I don't even think of you as weird or particularly stupid, or anything.

If you chose them, then don't choose them again. If they were given to you by the scenario, then either figure out how to use them, or mass them into a circle pointed inwards, and area fire until you kill yourself.

Rinse and repeat until it all makes sense.

[JonS]

... or, you could try the fig-leaf waving gnomes approach, and not send a frikkin turn!

(actually, two good suggestions from Sean in one post - he's a grog! Who knew?)

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by JonS:

... or, you could try the fig-leaf waving gnomes approach, and not send a frikkin turn!

(actually, two good suggestions from Sean in one post - he's a grog! Who knew?)

Everything I know, I learned in CM kindergarten.

Look, all you lot keep going on about 'a good suggestion from Seanachai, who'd of thunk it?!'

I'm a horrible, arrogant, opinionated sociopath who wants nothing more than to be hated by all mankind.

But I'm not stupid. As regards all CM questions, I simply apply logic and commonsense, because I admit to having no Groggly Knowledge (you know, the kind that makes men gnash their teeth with envy, and women swoon).

As for the turn...probably tomorrow. Or maybe I'll get way ambitious and shake off the need to explain things to waltero, and try and send it tonight...

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Zalgiris 1410:

I also think IMHO though that the Sword and Shield tactic would best be used on large enough battle maps and given enough time, especially in dusty CMAK moreso than in CMBB where I have mostly so far tried to employ this kind of ruse. :cool:

I think it probably works best in the first three years of the war where tank guns aren't very effective at long range and their armor is thin enough to be vulnerable to the ATGs. The situation in NA was ideal for the Germans because, prior to the introduction of the 6pdr on the other side, their long 50mm ATG was more powerful than anything else. And as you point out, you need a pretty big map to have enough room to make all this work, and the dust of NA gives a screen for the ATGs to unlimber and get set up in. I think basically, you want to advance your tanks just far enough to get the other guy's attention, maybe exchange a few shots, and then pull back before any serious damage is done. It's the kind of tactic that needs practice to get all the timing right. It also helps if your opponent is not excessively bright.

Michael

[gautrek]

Originally posted by Seanachai:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gautrek:

Is it just me.

I have a major problem with anti tank guns.Apart from the usual one of them kiling my tanks.

My problem is when i get given them when i am attacking.

Geez, Gautrek...how to put this? They're best on defense?

</font>

[JonS]

Originally posted by gautrek:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Seanachai:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gautrek:

Is it just me.

I have a major problem with anti tank guns.Apart from the usual one of them kiling my tanks.

My problem is when i get given them when i am attacking.

Geez, Gautrek...how to put this? They're best on defense?

</font>

[juan_gigante]

No, it has an s. Defense. And don't even start with all those extra "u"s. Colour. Favourite. It's crazy, I tell you, crazy! I tell ya, those English, they couldn't spell their way out of a paper bag...