a question about mobile recon units

[handihoc]

In every game I've played - and that's alot, from Squad Leader through CC, CM and more, over twenty years - I have never really worked out how to effectively make use of recon vehicles. They almost always get shot up early on. Like, as soon as they show themselves.

Historically this surely can't have been the fact. Suicide missions were never really an option in WWII, and recon units played a valuable role. But in games, including the CM games, their light armour and weapons make them highly vulnerable, even given their speed and manoeuvrability.

So the question is: has anyone found a foolproof way of using scout cars and the like that doesn't result in them getting toasted?

[handihoc]

In every game I've played - and that's alot, from Squad Leader through CC, CM and more, over twenty years - I have never really worked out how to effectively make use of recon vehicles. They almost always get shot up early on. Like, as soon as they show themselves.

Historically this surely can't have been the fact. Suicide missions were never really an option in WWII, and recon units played a valuable role. But in games, including the CM games, their light armour and weapons make them highly vulnerable, even given their speed and manoeuvrability.

So the question is: has anyone found a foolproof way of using scout cars and the like that doesn't result in them getting toasted?

[Michael Emrys]

I can't think offhand of any game that really tries to make an effort to accurately represent the reconnaissance mission. There have been discussions of how to do this within CM, but until there have been some fundamental alterations/additions to the game engine, this really isn't going to be satisfactory. The closest you can come, IMO is to do a probe mission of some kind.

Except in the German army, it just wasn't the recce's job to engage in heavy combat. They weren't armed for it in other armies, and that's why they get toasted in serious combat. Their job was to make contact with the enemy, observe, and report. They were only armed heavily enough to protect themselves in case they suddenly came upon enemy troops, and then only long enough to break contact and speed off to safer ground. You don't get points for doing that in CM.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

I can't think offhand of any game that really tries to make an effort to accurately represent the reconnaissance mission. There have been discussions of how to do this within CM, but until there have been some fundamental alterations/additions to the game engine, this really isn't going to be satisfactory. The closest you can come, IMO is to do a probe mission of some kind.

Except in the German army, it just wasn't the recce's job to engage in heavy combat. They weren't armed for it in other armies, and that's why they get toasted in serious combat. Their job was to make contact with the enemy, observe, and report. They were only armed heavily enough to protect themselves in case they suddenly came upon enemy troops, and then only long enough to break contact and speed off to safer ground. You don't get points for doing that in CM.

Michael

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Foolproof - no. IRL the crew would typically drive up to a seemingly safe place, then dismount to recon ahead on foot. The AC's etc just make them able to get out and back much quicker than leg troops.

Until the rewrite, your best bet is trying to find keyholing terrain to observe from hull down, or occasionally drive fast laterally across an area with LOS in hopes that they spot something but get behind cover before enemy fire catches up with them.

I love AC's and am really looking forward to their use in CMAK, but, like you, mine mostly serve notice of enemy presence by spectacularly exploding to point out an ATG or AFV.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Foolproof - no. IRL the crew would typically drive up to a seemingly safe place, then dismount to recon ahead on foot. The AC's etc just make them able to get out and back much quicker than leg troops.

Until the rewrite, your best bet is trying to find keyholing terrain to observe from hull down, or occasionally drive fast laterally across an area with LOS in hopes that they spot something but get behind cover before enemy fire catches up with them.

I love AC's and am really looking forward to their use in CMAK, but, like you, mine mostly serve notice of enemy presence by spectacularly exploding to point out an ATG or AFV.

[Ant]

I read a very good article a few years ago about how to avoid 'recon by death' in the Talonsoft campaign games. It basically involved using the speed of a light recon vehicle to quickly get to observation points overlooking possible avenues of enemy advance and wait to see what they could see.

This usually doesn't work so well in CM because the map sizes are typically too small. I think that in real life these vehicles would be working further ahead of the main forces, whereas in a typical CM scenario they're virtually chucked in to the main battle and so are usually less usefull

[Ant]

I read a very good article a few years ago about how to avoid 'recon by death' in the Talonsoft campaign games. It basically involved using the speed of a light recon vehicle to quickly get to observation points overlooking possible avenues of enemy advance and wait to see what they could see.

This usually doesn't work so well in CM because the map sizes are typically too small. I think that in real life these vehicles would be working further ahead of the main forces, whereas in a typical CM scenario they're virtually chucked in to the main battle and so are usually less usefull

[flamingknives]

No tactic is foolproof, but I tend to use SCs by fast moving from cover to cover and staying well back. Their role is to spot large movement of enemy troops or armour.

Otherwise, I'd rather a 20pt scout car finds a patch of mines or an ATG than a 200pt tank.

If I keep sufficient overwatch on the SC a careful opponent will think twice before engaging it with an ATG that costs as much or more than the SC.

[flamingknives]

No tactic is foolproof, but I tend to use SCs by fast moving from cover to cover and staying well back. Their role is to spot large movement of enemy troops or armour.

Otherwise, I'd rather a 20pt scout car finds a patch of mines or an ATG than a 200pt tank.

If I keep sufficient overwatch on the SC a careful opponent will think twice before engaging it with an ATG that costs as much or more than the SC.

[Redwolf]

The only realistic desireable combat for recon units is to shoot up other recon units.

You can also make a scenario where a recon unit gets hit on by a full combat unit, but then you'd probably make it an exit scenario for the recon side.

A determined attack into a few square kilometers know to be occupied by a defender who has a chance to repell the attack should not have reconnaissance vehicles or infantry in it.

Another realitsic scenario would be a bunch reconnaissance vehicles defending some even more valuable and vulnerable units like trucks or badly armed headquarters.

[Redwolf]

The only realistic desireable combat for recon units is to shoot up other recon units.

You can also make a scenario where a recon unit gets hit on by a full combat unit, but then you'd probably make it an exit scenario for the recon side.

A determined attack into a few square kilometers know to be occupied by a defender who has a chance to repell the attack should not have reconnaissance vehicles or infantry in it.

Another realitsic scenario would be a bunch reconnaissance vehicles defending some even more valuable and vulnerable units like trucks or badly armed headquarters.

[Michael Emrys]

Armored recce units could also have a semi-combat role in a case where they are pursuing an already broken enemy and overrun small disorganized forces not well disposed to defend themselves. I suppose one could design a scenario for this in CM, but likely it would only be fun for one side.

One force would be trying to exit with forces that had already taken large numbers of casualties, was only marginally fit, had low ammo, few or no heavy weapons, etc.

The other force would be in good shape in all categories and might even have a little fanaticism boost to replicate the heady mood of a victorious army.

Something like that anyway.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Armored recce units could also have a semi-combat role in a case where they are pursuing an already broken enemy and overrun small disorganized forces not well disposed to defend themselves. I suppose one could design a scenario for this in CM, but likely it would only be fun for one side.

One force would be trying to exit with forces that had already taken large numbers of casualties, was only marginally fit, had low ammo, few or no heavy weapons, etc.

The other force would be in good shape in all categories and might even have a little fanaticism boost to replicate the heady mood of a victorious army.

Something like that anyway.

Michael

[JasonC]

Real forces were very infantry heavy. We always give ourselves tons of armor - the real guys did not have it so good. Light armor is reasonable well protected against infantry force type forces. Sure, those have guns. But they tend to place their guns within their defensive perimeter, for obvious reasons. If you take fire from one gun you stay out of range and LOS thereafter. And 1-2 guns can be outshot, to get a pinned "point" out of danger.

Light mech did fight, though. It just wasn't expected to hold up against main tank forces, or to lead attacks on dug in defenders. It has lots of MGs and light guns for the number of men or the unit size. This gives a "heavy weapons" style of firepower. Meaning, able to pin down infantry at 500m to 1000m range, and prevent approach by light vehicles. They aren't supposed to let infantry get any closer - they displace instead. And they themselves don't want to get closer to strong enemies.

How to use them tactically if you are fighting against heavier stuff, or must tackle infantry in close, is another matter. The answer is you do not lead with them. Just because you think their role is scouting in a larger operational sense, that is no reason to charge ahead and get them killed. The lead vehicle should be a medium tank with a thick enough front that only heavy ATGs can kill them - heavy enough that you immediately spot the shooter, to KO it in reply. And the lead unit should not be a vehicle at all, but a half squad on foot.

Where does the light armor go, then? Back behind your main line. Back where mortars and HMG teams and FOs and towed guns are. Light armor can suppress with its MGs from back there, as easily as from 100m. But it won't get hit by everything. Occasionally you will discover an open area and want to run some light armor over to it. But because the area was found to be open and you want to keep it, not trying to take an area you think is defended.

Use MGs from light armor to cut up defender positions with crossing open ground sight lines, out to 500m. If a tank goes there first, fine, bring up an AC to "free" the tank for an additional mission, next. Also, light armor must use cover. Meaning, hug a building or woodline, or peek around a hill. You want full defilade to be 30 seconds away.

Keep 'em around through the early part of the engagement, instead of sacrificing them for next to nothing. Armored moving MG nests start feeling a lot more valuable around turn 20...

[JasonC]

Real forces were very infantry heavy. We always give ourselves tons of armor - the real guys did not have it so good. Light armor is reasonable well protected against infantry force type forces. Sure, those have guns. But they tend to place their guns within their defensive perimeter, for obvious reasons. If you take fire from one gun you stay out of range and LOS thereafter. And 1-2 guns can be outshot, to get a pinned "point" out of danger.

Light mech did fight, though. It just wasn't expected to hold up against main tank forces, or to lead attacks on dug in defenders. It has lots of MGs and light guns for the number of men or the unit size. This gives a "heavy weapons" style of firepower. Meaning, able to pin down infantry at 500m to 1000m range, and prevent approach by light vehicles. They aren't supposed to let infantry get any closer - they displace instead. And they themselves don't want to get closer to strong enemies.

How to use them tactically if you are fighting against heavier stuff, or must tackle infantry in close, is another matter. The answer is you do not lead with them. Just because you think their role is scouting in a larger operational sense, that is no reason to charge ahead and get them killed. The lead vehicle should be a medium tank with a thick enough front that only heavy ATGs can kill them - heavy enough that you immediately spot the shooter, to KO it in reply. And the lead unit should not be a vehicle at all, but a half squad on foot.

Where does the light armor go, then? Back behind your main line. Back where mortars and HMG teams and FOs and towed guns are. Light armor can suppress with its MGs from back there, as easily as from 100m. But it won't get hit by everything. Occasionally you will discover an open area and want to run some light armor over to it. But because the area was found to be open and you want to keep it, not trying to take an area you think is defended.

Use MGs from light armor to cut up defender positions with crossing open ground sight lines, out to 500m. If a tank goes there first, fine, bring up an AC to "free" the tank for an additional mission, next. Also, light armor must use cover. Meaning, hug a building or woodline, or peek around a hill. You want full defilade to be 30 seconds away.

Keep 'em around through the early part of the engagement, instead of sacrificing them for next to nothing. Armored moving MG nests start feeling a lot more valuable around turn 20...

[Alkiviadis]

I recall reading in "The Rommel Papers" that he, in his x-country thrust with the 7th Pz in May 1940, positioned his recon battalion behind his tank regiment: the spearhead, & the infantry & artillery - it's function was to mop up protect the follow on forces

[ December 02, 2003, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Alkiviadis ]

[Alkiviadis]

I recall reading in "The Rommel Papers" that he, in his x-country thrust with the 7th Pz in May 1940, positioned his recon battalion behind his tank regiment: the spearhead, & the infantry & artillery - it's function was to mop up protect the follow on forces

[ December 02, 2003, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Alkiviadis ]

[Hurryin Heinz]

Wasn't too hot on the lil hot wheels until a game in which ruskies were stalled by my infantry in the woods on top of a hill. The enemy had a bad run of it earlier and was now hurting, and the four halftracks with mg's which had been guarding the backdoor came out and changed a stalled enemy into a comepletely routed one, bagging quite a few while it was at it. What would have been a minor win was changed into a major, for very few points, that were important in being a kind of warning/light resistance outpost earlier. Looking forward to seeing how the less rout/more likely capture thing works with this in ak though.

[Hurryin Heinz]

Wasn't too hot on the lil hot wheels until a game in which ruskies were stalled by my infantry in the woods on top of a hill. The enemy had a bad run of it earlier and was now hurting, and the four halftracks with mg's which had been guarding the backdoor came out and changed a stalled enemy into a comepletely routed one, bagging quite a few while it was at it. What would have been a minor win was changed into a major, for very few points, that were important in being a kind of warning/light resistance outpost earlier. Looking forward to seeing how the less rout/more likely capture thing works with this in ak though.

[Monty]

In CMAK you can use the recon units to make dustclouds on your left flank while your tanks attack on your right flank

You have to get them out of LOS offcourse !!

Your opponent has to guess where you attack.

Monty

[Monty]

In CMAK you can use the recon units to make dustclouds on your left flank while your tanks attack on your right flank

You have to get them out of LOS offcourse !!

Your opponent has to guess where you attack.

Monty