Assaulting/Advancing with the Bren LMG

[cassh]

Windsor Carrier?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by cassh:

Windsor Carrier?

I like a man who knows how to count bogie wheels.

[Wartgamer]

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-armour/allied/bren_carrier.htm

Its a T16.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Bonus points to anyone that can name the type of vehicle shown in this photograph.

My, my. A Browning and a Bren. But what's that big tube sticking up just to the left (well, right as we look at it) of the guy on the Browning? My first thought was a Lewis gun, but that's not right. It's much too long to to be a 2" mortar and just a tad too long and too slender to be a 3" methinks. Not a bazooka either, I don't think. Hmmm. Interesting.

I'll have to look now and see what the others say...

Michael

[flamingknives]

I'd lay money on that being a 2" mortar. The end cap is pretty distinctive, as is the firing mechanism. The baseplate is mounted on the front corner (or thereabouts) of the carrier, so it's not too long.

And it is a T16. Apparently you can tell the difference by looking at the gap between bogies. The gap on the Windsor is larger.

[cassh]

2" mortar.

http://www.national-army-museum.ac.uk/images/italy.jpg

[Wartgamer]

One of these carrier types was featured on a TV show the other day (Its a wierd show with a Marine barking and features 'Mailcall').

Anyway, this vehicle was being driven by the 'Gunny' and he did a complete 180 turn with a locked track. This vehicle turned completely around what appeared to be seconds. Nothing like you see in the CM games.

If a flamethrower was mounted on these things, It could easily approach an enemy position quickly, flame it, turn around and be gone.

[Dandelion]

Since we are into Carrier fetischism, I have an anecdote to contribute.

In an attempted Coup de Main, Major Bowker of 1/5 Welch ordered an assault into Rethem at 1100 hours on April 10th, 1945, using two Wasps and three carriers. Led by a Sgt Moses. Companies C and A were locked in combat trying unsuccessfully to penetrate the same heavily defended town, B was coming up and so it was well known that the defences were extensive.

Still, the main road was used, the carriers assaulting full speed. The small force hit a resistance nest (WN von der Kammer) blocking the entrance to town, but of several Panzerfausts discharged none hit the speeding little vehicles. The three Pak covering the road also missed. The tiny force was able to rout the defenders and destroy the three guns.

The carriers pressed on, again at full speed, firing machineguns and flame on both sides of the road. Stopped by a roadblock (WN Alpe) 450 yards from the Town centre, a Wasp took a direct Panzerfaust hit and detonated, killing the crew. The lieutenant in charge of WN Alpe was spotted by the second Wasp, which fired at him, but for reasons unknown the ignition failed. The officer found himself drenched in flame fuel ("leaving him with one heavily polluted uniform") but alive. The tiny assault force was checked, turned around and speeded back.

On their way back a carrier and a Wasp took a wrong turn (due to pressure of incoming) and ended up in a dead-end leading to the trainstation. As they doubled back, the defenders had time to swing a Pak in position to fire, but it missed and got flamed in return. As the last two carriers speeded home, the defenders detonated Teller mines attached to tress along the road, and projected heavy smallarms fire. But they still got away.

The reckless undertaking cost a Wasp, three dead and three missing. It also made a lasting impression on the defenders. Not even the Shermans and Fireflies of 2 Mons, heavily supported by Typhoons, got that far into town during the battle.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Buq-Buq]

Dandelion:

Surely the Shermans & Fireflies you refer to actually belonged to B Squadron, 5 RTR, rather than 2 Mons . . .

Mark

[Dandelion]

Err... well, no. No not at all. You see, 2 Mons was an infantry battallion... using infantry tanks. Standard british concept. Everybody knows that....

Not only are you absolutely correct about that (how did you know it was B squadron?), the 5 RTR apparently used Cromwells and Fireflies, not Shermans and ditto.

Cheerioops

Dandelion

[Buq-Buq]

Ahhhhhh . . . yes, Cromwells, would be correct . . . DOH!!

I had to look up the B Squadron part, and looked right at the Cromwells . . . which obviously went right past me.

:-[

About ten years ago from . . . well, from right now, I worked on a project using "No Triumphant Procession". I found John Russell's book to be a riveting tale, and still revisit it from time to time, dreaming away the hours, thinking about scenarios for CMAK. Much to my chagrin, most of the good stuff (Comets, Challengers, Cromwells, Locusts, etc.) got left out of CMAK, it being the Mediterranean Theater and all.

I'm looking forward to CMX2 . . .

Mark

[Wartgamer]

http://panzersinnormandy.tripod.com/

Cromwells were only good for towing Panzer IVs

[Michael Dorosh]

(From INFANTRY TRAINING Part VIII - Fieldcraft, Battle Drill, Section and Platoon Tactics 1944 p. 39)

Suggested Organization of Infantry Platoon

Platoon Headquarters.:

Platoon Commander - pistol

Platoon Sergeant - Rifle, 50 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 4 grenades

Mortar Lance Corporal - Rifle, 50 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 3 rounds High Explosive, 9 rounds Smoke

Mortar No. 1 - Sten, 5 mags, 160 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, mortar, 3 rounds High Explosive, 3 rounds Smoke

Mortar No. 2 - Rifle, 50 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 6 rounds High Explosive, 6 rounds Smoke

Runner - Rifle, 50 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 2 grenades

Batman - Rifle, 50 rounds Small Arms Ammunition

(Note. -- Signal bombs as ordered will displace Smoke and HE.)

Rifle Section:

Sec. Comd - Sten, 5 mags, 160 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 2 grenades

No. 1 Rifleman - Rifle, 50 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 2 Bren mags + 106 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 1 grenade

No. 2 Rifleman - Rifle, 50 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 2 Bren mags + 106 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 1 grenade

No. 3 Rifleman - Rifle, 50 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 2 Bren mags + 106 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 1 grenade

No. 4 Rifleman - Rifle, 50 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 2 Bren mags + 106 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 1 grenade

No. 5 Rifleman - Rifle, 50 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 2 Bren mags + 106 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 1 grenade

No. 6 Rifleman - Rifle, 50 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 2 Bren mags + 106 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 1 grenade

Bren Gun

2 I.C. - Rifle, 50 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 4 Bren mags + 112 rounds Small Arms Ammunition

No. 1 Bren Gunner - Bren, 4 Bren mags + 112 rounds Small Arms Ammunition

No. 2 Bren Gunner - Rifle, 50 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 4 Bren mags + 140 rounds Small Arms Ammunition, 2 grenades

10 grenades per section. 6 grenades H.Q. (36, 69, 77). 74 and 75 Grenades are occasional weapons only to be carried when specially ordered.

Notes:

3 sets utility pouches to be carried by morter det. in addition to their basic pouches.

2 sets utility pouches per section carried by 2 I.C. and No. 2 Bren additional to basic pouches.

the figures above represent the amount caried, and the difference between them andc G1098 scale represents platoon reserve.

Of interest to me here are the loadouts for the 2 inch mortar....

[JonS]

FWIW:

No.36 = Mills Bomb, defensive grenade

No.69 = Offensive grenade (kinda similar to a flash-bang)

No.77 = Smoke grenade

No.74 = 'Sticky' bomb (a.k.a. 'Arrgh! Get it away from me! Get it away! Get it away!')

No.75 = Hawkins A-Tk grenade/mine

[Wartgamer]

http://www.hypospace.net/equipment/mortars.htm

This page shows the ballistic shape of the 2 in mortar rounds.

. The table below outlines a 50% probability of wounding a standing soldier under daylight engagement conditions given. Night-time probabilities were approximately 1/3rd of daytime probabilities.

(LA=Low Angle HA=High Angle)

Range (yds)

200 LA

400 LA

525

400 HA

200 HA

Hit probability

10%

3.8%

6.8%

4.9%

6.0%

No. bombs

7

18

10

14

12

Given the ammo expenditure this table shows, there must be some resupply if it is used during a firefight.

The US grouped the 60mm weapon at company and one of the main functions of the jeep/trailers was resupplying ammo for the MMG and 60mm mortars.

[ March 28, 2005, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[dalem]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

The US grouped the 60mm weapon at company and one of the main functions of the jeep/trailers was resupplying ammo for the MMG and 60mm mortars.

Only in Infantry divisions.

In Airborne and Armored Infantry units the mortar squads lived individually with the platoons moreso than grouped as a platoon for the company.

-dale

[flamingknives]

But the 2" mortar was not used like the 60mm mortar was.

If I understand WO 32/10577 correctly, a single 2" mortar can create a 500yd long smokescreen that will last for a minute if no further bombs are used. Using a full complement of smoke bombs, the screen can be created in 1 minute and sustained for 3 minutes. 500 yds is somewhat excessive for a single platoon, so a smaller screen could be sustained for a greater period.

And the CW battlion has organic carriers for ammo resupply.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

But the 2" mortar was not used like the 60mm mortar was.

If I understand WO 32/10577 correctly, a single 2" mortar can create a 500yd long smokescreen that will last for a minute if no further bombs are used. Using a full complement of smoke bombs, the screen can be created in 1 minute and sustained for 3 minutes. 500 yds is somewhat excessive for a single platoon, so a smaller screen could be sustained for a greater period.

And the CW battlion has organic carriers for ammo resupply.

Armoured, tracked, safer, faster off road and better mobility than a Jeep...

Although each company commander in the CW did have a Jeep also - wonder how often they were pressed into service for cas evac or resupply missions. Or for that matter, gamey recon...

[Wartgamer]

Projectiles Needs To Screen A 500 Meter Front Mortar

Bomb weight

Filling weight

Range

Bombs/min

2-in

2 lb

1 lb HCE

470 yd

9

3-in

10 lb

1½ lb WP

1700 yd

10

-

2½ lb HCE

6

4.2-in

21½ lb

5¼ lb WP

6

[flamingknives]

Well done, you've regurgitated essentially the same data as WO 179/1054, "2nd Canadian Div 'G' branch war diary, August 1942", though it's worth noting that a 500 yd smokescreen is a 455m smokescreen.

But, I fail to see what your point is.

[Wartgamer]

The point is comparative information for those that like to see other weapons. Not everyone has your unregurgatated data so I shared this data.

457.2 meters btw

[Wisbech_lad]

Wartykins,

You've got to remember the sportiness of the British Army. Slaughtering vast numbers of sharpened mango wielding fuzzy wuzzies, or spikey helmeted krauts just wasn't really cricket.

So, interwar, the British army turned down 6.5mm calibre assault rifles, adopted an odd tank doctrine, etc etc. to give the other fellas a bit of a head start next time. Sort of like starting off the duel lefthanded. And it worked, WW2 was much more interesting than WW1.

So, I think you owe the CW grogs an apology, otherwise it wouldn't have been WW2, it would be "the Rhineland Coup" and nylons, instant coffee and East German shotputters would never have been invented.

BTW, even bn's aren't designed to fight alone. I would even hesitate to say a brigade can operate independently. The CW org was designed to be flexible, with cross attachments & postings, rather than trying to have one OOB fits all. Sort of like the Germans ended up with kampfgruppes for different situations.

E.g. reading Jary, as a commander of a plan vanilla platoon. Sometimes he has Vickers, sometimes he has AT guns, sometimes he has an FOO with him, sometimes he goes on patrol with just an umbrella (he was a terrible shot, and reckoned that at least by having an umbrella he wouldn't get wet, could poke about for mines, and wasn't tempted to do anything silly giving away location of his patrol)

IMHO, the CW force shortchanged by the OOB was probably the airbourne, where having (in OOB) more heavy support at bn/ co lvl would have probably been a good idea. But at D Day the rest of the army linked up with them fast, and at Arnhem they expected them to, so...

[Wartgamer]

BTW, even bn's aren't designed to fight alone. I would even hesitate to say a brigade can operate independently. The CW org was designed to be flexible, with cross attachments & postings, rather than trying to have one OOB fits all. Sort of like the Germans ended up with kampfgruppes for different situations.

I guess thats the spin but I would much rather have the guys firing MGs over my head be part of my own company. Specialized weapons, like TDs or Flamethrowers or what have you, do not need to make a showing every battle, but MGs are core infantry weapons.

[flamingknives]

I'd agree that Brigades were not independent units. Artillery etc. being held at division level.

Having MGs in dedicated units means that they can be deployed in support of any of the subordinate units.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

I'd agree that Brigades were not independent units. Artillery etc. being held at division level.

Having MGs in dedicated units means that they can be deployed in support of any of the subordinate units.

Or, you can just have lots of machineguns, so that every subordinate unit can have one.

A German 1. Welle Infanteriedivision had 110 sMGs. These were the elite divisions used for offensive purposes.

A 3. Welle Infanteriedivision had 150 HMGs, these were used for manning the Westwall.

2. & 4. Welle 114 sMGs

According to John Salt's 'Britorg' document, 42 MMG in the British divisional MG Battalion.

So you can either have 114 sMGs, close to the line of command you need them at, or 42, and hope that some are cross-attached. Thank you, I know what I would choose.