EarlofWarwick Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Alright, lads, let's see how good you really are: What, in the parlance of the British fighting Rommel in 1941, is a "jock"? ps. forgive my syntax 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Soldier in a highland unit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Or a Scottish soldier serving in any unit. Might also refer to Jock columns, combined arms groups of approximately battallion size that operated independently in the desert. As a last resort, guys who played the records on the desert radio? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Yes indeed - any Scotsman can be a "Jock" at any time......so can large rugby players!! :eek: Jock columns were named after Jock Campbell. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Mike: Jock columns were named after Jock Campbell ...... the Scottish gunner ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Mike: Yes indeed - any Scotsman can be a "Jock" at any time......so can large rugby players!! :eek: Enthusiastic athletes and wannabe athletes of any size in the US often get referred to as "jocks", especially if they try to use their athleticism to leverage their social status in an offensively overbearing manner. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlofWarwick Posted February 10, 2004 Author Share Posted February 10, 2004 The answer I had in mind was Mike's: a combined arms, company to battalion- sized unit (also called a "Jock" Column)first employed by the Brits in Operation Brevity. The appearance of the phrase suggests that the British were beginning to learn the tough lessons dealt out to them by combined arms attacks of the highly flexible DAK. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by EarlofWarwick: The answer I had in mind was Mike's: a combined arms, company to battalion- sized unit (also called a "Jock" Column)first employed by the Brits in Operation Brevity. The appearance of the phrase suggests that the British were beginning to learn the tough lessons dealt out to them by combined arms attacks of the highly flexible DAK. No, it suggests the British were desperately short of forces. They were in use before BREVITY. When Rommel first approached TOBRUCH the Aussies were bottled up there, and there was bugger all left to cover the Egyptian border. The only way they could cover the vast, open area south of Hellfaya Pass was to disperse the few mobile forces into columns, and have them individually patrol the open desert. Jock Campbell, the guy who 'invented' them knew at the time that they could only be a temporary expedient, were wasteful, and in any kind of fight would be soundly defeated. But, in the specific circumstances they were intially created for (Rommel was over-extended at the time too remember) they worked fine. Unfortuantely they worked too fine, and became a way of life for the mobility-obsessed clique within the British Army. It also didn't help that Jock Campbell himself was something of a legend, and subsequently awarded a well deserved VC. Thus, anything he had touched must have been gold. Unfortunately he was killed in action before he could undo some of the doctrinal damage he wrought. Many of the disasters and defeats that followed over the next couple of years (basically until the Alamein line stabilised and Montgomery took over in August '42) can reasonably be laid at this door. An ok idea taken too far for too long. Regards JonS [ February 11, 2004, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: JonS ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by EarlofWarwick: The appearance of the phrase suggests that the British were beginning to learn the tough lessons dealt out to them by combined arms attacks of the highly flexible DAK. A comment on this bit specifically: the British soundly, decisivly, and with finality defeated Rommel and his DAK only when they rejected "the tough lessons dealt out to them by ... DAK." Regards JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Radley Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: Enthusiastic athletes and wannabe athletes of any size in the US often get referred to as "jocks", especially if they try to use their athleticism to leverage their social status in an offensively overbearing manner. Michael It still hurts, doesn't it, Michael? The taunts, the public humiliations during study hall, never being asked to sit at the "cool table" during lunch. Let it go, Michael, let it go. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jim Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 To quote John Keegan's 'The Second World War', concerning the preperation for El Alamein: "Montgomery conceived his offensive in a style altogether different from his predecessors, who had been consistently tempted by the freedom of manoeuvre ... in the hope of achieving a Panzer-style Blitzkrieg. Montgomery rightly judged that the British armoured divisions lacked the flair to out-German the Germans". It took us Brits a while to learn that particular lesson! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Originally posted by Boo Radley: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys: Enthusiastic athletes and wannabe athletes of any size in the US often get referred to as "jocks", especially if they try to use their athleticism to leverage their social status in an offensively overbearing manner. Michael It still hurts, doesn't it, Michael? The taunts, the public humiliations during study hall, never being asked to sit at the "cool table" during lunch. Let it go, Michael, let it go. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Originally posted by Boo Radley: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys: Enthusiastic athletes and wannabe athletes of any size in the US often get referred to as "jocks", especially if they try to use their athleticism to leverage their social status in an offensively overbearing manner. Michael It still hurts, doesn't it, Michael? The taunts, the public humiliations during study hall, never being asked to sit at the "cool table" during lunch. Let it go, Michael, let it go. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Radley Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: You must have the wrong guy, Boo. At my school, I was God. The lower classmen worshipped me. The upperclassmen trembled at my approach. I had every girl in the cheerleading squad and then passed them on to my favorites. Michael I envy you your rich and varied fantasy life, Michael. Tell me again what color the sky is in your world? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wacky Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Jocks was used in the same manner in my high school here in Calgary in the 1980s. The hallway by the gym with all the athletic trophies was called "Jock Hall". Don't know that we found them all that overbearing, but Americans are freaks about amateur sport. We can't fill a 38,000 seat stadium for pro football in Canada, but American college ball will fill a 100,000 seat stadium. Silly us, prioritizing education... Jeez, there are places in Texas where you could probably fill 38,000 for a high school game... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Originally posted by Captain Wacky: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Jocks was used in the same manner in my high school here in Calgary in the 1980s. The hallway by the gym with all the athletic trophies was called "Jock Hall". Don't know that we found them all that overbearing, but Americans are freaks about amateur sport. We can't fill a 38,000 seat stadium for pro football in Canada, but American college ball will fill a 100,000 seat stadium. Silly us, prioritizing education... Jeez, there are places in Texas where you could probably fill 38,000 for a high school game... </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansbach Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Originally posted by JonS: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by EarlofWarwick: The appearance of the phrase suggests that the British were beginning to learn the tough lessons dealt out to them by combined arms attacks of the highly flexible DAK. A comment on this bit specifically: the British soundly, decisivly, and with finality defeated Rommel and his DAK only when they rejected "the tough lessons dealt out to them by ... DAK." </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand digger Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 JonS, right on the money, re Jock columns. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlofWarwick Posted February 11, 2004 Author Share Posted February 11, 2004 Wow, A thread that combines (residual)high school clique angst, tactical doctrine, and cultural commentary. I LOVE this forum. Which brings me to my next trivia question: To what activity did the Aussies apply the phrase "love and kisses" during the siege of Tobruk in '41? If someone gets this one I'll give up trying to stump this particular crowd. You guys are GOOD. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansbach Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I don't know for sure, but my guess is "Heil Hitler". 88 was the old telegraph code for "love and kisses", and 88 was also slang for "Heil Hitler", H being the 8th letter of the alphabet. (If I am correct then partial credit goes to the Great Sage Known Only As Google. ) [ February 11, 2004, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Ansbach ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlofWarwick Posted February 11, 2004 Author Share Posted February 11, 2004 Good try Ansbach, but no. Any other takers? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Boggs Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 There were sheep at Tobruk??? :eek: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Originally posted by EarlofWarwick: Good try Ansbach, but no. Any other takers? Incoming? Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlofWarwick Posted February 11, 2004 Author Share Posted February 11, 2004 Nope. Last try, anyone? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Originally posted by Boo Radley: I envy you...You analyst still hasn't worked you through that one yet, huh? Well, don't give up, just double the dosages and keep plugging away. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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