Italiani, brava gente

[Botto]

October 23 - 29 1942 - The British attack the sector defended by the Folgore Parachute Division. The Italian forces included 3,500 paratroopers, 1,000 Guastatori d'Africa, 80 artillery pieces and 5 tanks of German origin. The odds were 1:13 for men, 1:5 for Artillery and 1:70 for tanks. The Folgore prepared their defenses among a 15 kilometer barrier and realized they were the last defense before the rear of the Italo-German Army. The fighting lasted for one week and constituted four separate battles; the central sector on the 23rd, the northern sector near Naqb Rala on the 24th, the central sector again on the 24th and 25th, and the southern sector on the 25th, 26th and 29th. The British are thrown back after every attempt with a considerable loss of life and are ordered a stop any further initiatives on that front. Total dead, wounded or missing amount to 1,100 for the Folgore. Eventually General Montgomery's forces claim victory over the Axis forces in El Alamein and Rommel orders the Folgore to withdraw on the 2nd of November, leaving their defenses still intact. Eventually, the remaining Folgore forces thin out during the difficult withdrawel through the desert.

-

November 27 1942 - Two German columns roll into Toulon to take possession of all French ships. Forewarned, Admiral Jean de Laborde orders his fleet scuttled. He ensured that all ships scuttled would rest on even keels in the hope that some day they can be salvaged to sail for France again. A total of 77 ships rested on the bottom of the sea at the port of Toulon. It was not the French, but Italian engineers who were the first to salvage the ships. In 9 months, Italian engineers were able to salvage 30 ships. They then confiscated the 30 vessels along with everything that was salvageable above the waterline. Some items confiscated were the aircraft catapult and turrent armor of the Battle Cruiser Strasbourg, and the interior fittings of the Dunkerque. Seven French destroyers and 1 submarine were either towed or sailed on their own power to ports in Italy.

Mid December1942 - Axis forces begin losing ground in the Soviet Union. Russian troops mount a counterattack on the frozen Don River.

Fierce fighting is reported and eventually the Hungarian and Romanian forces flee, leaving only the Italians to fight. Outnumbered 4-1, The Italians are forced to retreat leaving only crack Alpine troops to fight until they too are almost encircled

[Botto]

[January 10 1943 - The Arditi Regiment, in teams of 9 to 10 men, parachute in various places in Libya, Tunisia and Algeria for covert warfare duties. Although not as successful as they had hoped to be, they managed to destroy or damage the bridges in Bonira, Beni Mansour and Uadi Bouduvaou.

June 12 - Allied invasion force enters the Island of Pantelleria and Lampedusa, encountering 12,000 Italian soldiers who surrender immediately. This invasion makes the Fascist government of Italy certain of an eventual invasion of Italy.

Franco Cargnel and Vito Procida parachute near Benghazi and covertly reach the Benina North Airport, there they put explosive charges in 20 allied aircraft, destroying them all.

[Botto]

That should be enough to keep everyone reading

[massimorocca]

Bene, mi pare che li abbiamo messi a tacere!

[Knaust]

grazie ragazzi...

[von Lucke]

Yes, yes, all very good --- but most of the actions you cite involve paratroopers, commandos, or Young Fascists. Units formed of volunteers, given more intensive training, indoctrination, motivation than your average line infantry. It's the same in all armies --- but we're only talking about a small percentage of the overall force.

Even the regular division you mention most frequently, the Trieste Division, spent most of it's time in the shadow of the DAK --- which, no doubt, provided the Italians with more in the way of training, supplies, motivation, etc.

For instance:

Originally posted by Botto:

BIR EL GOBI

November 19 1941- British attack Axis forces at Bir El Gobi. Ariete's 146 M13/40's take the brunt of the attack and stop the British advance. The Ariete deploy in three battalion sized formations with twenty four 75/27's, thirty 47/32's, twelve 105/28's and seven 102/35's. The Ariete with 73 guns and 137 tanks, engaged the 28 pdrs. and 158 Crusaders of the XXII Armoured Brigade of the British. The XXII lose 55 tanks at Bir El Gobi and spend the next two days in the Allied rear regrouping.

This was 22nd Armored Brigades' first action, and the Yeomanry regiments went into battle using simple fire-and-move tactics, with no infantry or artillery support --- basically a cavalry charge.

Even so, the Italians lost 34 tanks (and 15 damaged). More relevant to my point, some of the defenders (the right-hand line being overrun fairly easily) gave up early in the action, but finding no follow-on Brit infantry to surrender to, re-manned their guns, and commenced to shooting at the backs of the green tankers. And British sources say only 25 Crusaders were lost to enemy fire --- mostly thanks to those 102mm naval gun portées --- though about 30 more of the new Crusader tanks suffered mechanical breakdowns outside the battle area.

Over the next few days, the Ariete attack the XXII and IV Armoured Brigade and by November 23, the Ariete, Trieste and Savona account for more than 200 British tanks destroyed along with roughly 200 British vehicles.

Really? My sources show that 22nd and 4th Armored retired to the area of Gabr Saleh on the night of 19 - 20 Nov, and that they would be engaged there (and later, in a running battle back to Sidi Rezegh) for the next three days by 15th and 21st Panzer. While this is going on, the Ariete Division stayed put at Bir el Gubi, screened by 5th, then 1st South African Brigades; and finally 22nd Guards Bde.

23 November --- Tottensontag: The Brits began with little over 100 tanks to begin with (22nd with 30 / 7th with 10 / 4th with 75), and most of them (the 4th Armored Bde) were reorganizing in the desert to the east of the coming battle. That leaves a whole 40 tanks --- hardly "over 200". Anyway, it was mostly the 5th South African Brigade (infantry) that ended up being cut to ribbons that day, with the DAK doing the cutting.

The Ariete Division was meant to take part, yes, but their infantry had been pinned at Bir el Gubi by the 22nd Guards --- leaving the M13/40's to move north alone. The tanks then had to take a wide detour around 1st South African Brigade, so arrived on the western flank of the battlefield too late to do more than aid in mopping up what was left of 5th SA.

The Trieste and Savona Divisions are nowhere to be seen during all this. IIRC, Trieste was SE of Tobruk, and what was left of Savona was way over on the Egyptian frontier, facing off with 4th Indian Division.

To put a capper on it, when the Ariete Division did finally catch up with what was left of 4th Armored (with a meager 37 tanks) on 26 November near Taieb el Esem, all the Italians could muster was a little desultory long-range artillery fire, before breaking off contact and withdrawing once night fell.

[ December 15, 2003, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: von Lucke ]

[Aries]

So, guys whats your point? Do you want to demonstrate italians are a bunch of cowards, losers and subhumans?

Am astonished by these posts, especially when they come from US. I *can* understand german neonazi posters still hateing their former allies .... but take a look at how many italian surnames there are between US WW2 and Vietnam deads and veterans.

Next time we will ban italians from playing strategy games becouse they didnt want to fight not wanted, badly organized wars or under dictatorships?

[edited to keep out french ppl from this sh*t and useless flames]

[ December 15, 2003, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Aries ]

[Aries]

A couple of books some armchair generals should read:

"Hitler's Italian Allies: Royal Armed Forces, Fascist Regime, and the War of 1940-1943"

by MacGregor Knox

(excellent and easy to find at Amazon)

"The children of Colombo"

by Erik Amfiteatros

(rare but excellent)

You'll discover soon how and why italians fought WW2 and how many italians built, with their sweat and blood, the United States of America.

Now wheres the next idiot?

[jmbunnelle]

Ah, I always loved the Italians due to their penchant for surrendering in NA. A true sign of their superior intelligence and fiercely democratic spirit, IMHO. Shows how much their heart was really behind Fascism and Il Duce. Highly democratic societies (no, the U.S. doesn't count) always produce sh***y soldiers because they ask too many questions and don't follow orders. "Yes, but WHY do I want to charge into that artillery barrage?" LOL

[Aries]

We found it

[ December 15, 2003, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Aries ]

[Grey Hunter]

So, Some Italian Troops Surrendered, while others died where they stood, I don't really see the point of this, is it any different to any other nation in the second world war

The British : were beaten back at Dunkurk and in East-West Africa when Rommel attacked, but held their positions in Arnham and Tobruk far beyond what could be expected.

USA : Ran like buggery during the start of the battle of the bulge, and during Kassarine (sp.) Pass, but held Bastogne with Airborne against Armmoured units.

Russia : Well, I don't need to give an exsample for the start of the war, but held at Stalingrad and never lost leningrad despite 900+ days of siege.

Germany: Held in the Bocage, Belgiem and Russia, but crumbled under the onslaughts of the Russians during their later offensives and Allies during Cobra.

Japan: well, never really retreated, but had a tendancy to kill themsleves if it looked bad.

So, Every nation had their good and bad points, it is more a matter of the drive of the soldiers rather than the quality, the Italina troops had nothing to fight for, so surrenred rather than dying pointlessly. But to lable a Whole nation Cowardly, that seems extreeme

[Sergei]

Okay, boys... how about everybody just backs off a bit.

I am inclined to think that the reasons for Italy's lack of successes in WW2 lie in the underdeveloped infrastructure, general backwardness and political corruption, more similar to Spain than Germany and Britain. Italy was the smallest of the major belligerents but probably the only reason why it is counted as "major" is because it was the primary cause for the whole Mediterranean campaign and because Mussolini considered it to be so. Also in play is the low level of motivation. Heck, Mussolini himself was killed by Italian partisans! What does that tell about the backing given to Benito by the people and the soldiers?

Italy is actually quite similar with Japan, only that the Japanese leadership wasn't too shy to use the navy even if it meant losses and that their soldiers weren't too shy to die in a useless bayonet charge. And they had been fighting in China for a decade. And they had a good airforce, initially anyway. Well okay, Italy and Japan were completely different. But if you look at the border war between Japan and Soviet Union in late 1930's, it should be obvious that sometimes even supposed courage and zeal aren't enough to give victory.

Still, jesting about Italians shouldn't be taken by anyone so seriously as to accuse others of being German neo-nazis... just laugh along and jest back about the black moments of their respective armies. Or present them a challenge in CMAK!

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Grey Hunter:

East-West Africa

Where is that? :confused:

[CRSutton]

Coward is a relative term. You have to have an understanding of the political situation in Italy to really understand the motivation of the front line troops. By 1940, many Italians had soured on the facists and their leader. Italian overseas adventures had sapped the economy and most of the troops and a substantial portion of the high command had little if any reguard for the African campaign.

Few saw any merit in their presence in North Africa. The were disliked by the local population, poorly equipped, and poorly treated by their officers. This did not create a situation where the troops were highly motivated to fight. Italians are men just like any other nationality. When given the proper motivation, they will fight. WWI gives us a clear picture of that.

[Grey Hunter]

That was short for East Through West, the war covered a little bit of ground

[-E]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Grey Hunter:

East-West Africa

Where is that? :confused: </font>

[Sgt Joch]

German and Japanese soldiers fought to the last man defending a hopeless cause.

The Italians surrendered, went back to their wives, had children, grandchildren and lived to be old men.

sounds like a smart choice to me.

[gunnergoz]

I'm greatly pleased to see the balanced, thoughtful replies to this thread. It's one of the oldest cliches, but the Myth Of Italian Cowardice keeps cropping up in these forums as new generations of "military buffs" begin their education, draw the wrong initial conclusions and go on to learn that history, like an onion, has layers one has to peel through...

[Botto]

People seem to forget that soldiers from everyside surrendered, Italians weren't only soldiers on planet surrendering when they didn't want to fight anymore

As for the 1943 surrender remeber that 1/2 million Italians fought with the Germans until the last day of the war

Only a fool would think that Italy was out of the war in 1943

Almost the entire Italian Air Force "went north" and joined up with the Germans after the September 8th 1943 surrender

[jmbunnelle]

Originally posted by CRSutton:

When given the proper motivation, they will fight. WWI gives us a clear picture of that.

Exactly. And let's not forget the partisans that caused major headaches for the Northern Republic.

[Pkunzipper]

I agree. This is one of the few times I see this topic discussed with enough intelligence by everyone...

Botto, the ones that fought with RSI were no more and no less brave than the ones that stayed with the king or the partisans...

Men of all nations are equals, what that makes them behave in differents way are things like motivations (remember that Mussolini never was democratically elected), quality of weapons and their effectivness against enemy (Italy had no effective AT weapons, few SMG and also an old inadeguate 6.5mm rifle!), supplies and leadership.

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by jmbunnelle:

Ah, I always loved the Italians due to their penchant for surrendering in NA. A true sign of their superior intelligence and fiercely democratic spirit, IMHO. Shows how much their heart was really behind Fascism and Il Duce. Highly democratic societies (no, the U.S. doesn't count) always produce sh***y soldiers because they ask too many questions and don't follow orders. "Yes, but WHY do I want to charge into that artillery barrage?" LOL

Exactly...

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by CRSutton:

Coward is a relative term. You have to have an understanding of the political situation in Italy to really understand the motivation of the front line troops. By 1940, many Italians had soured on the facists and their leader. Italian overseas adventures had sapped the economy and most of the troops and a substantial portion of the high command had little if any reguard for the African campaign.

Few saw any merit in their presence in North Africa. The were disliked by the local population, poorly equipped, and poorly treated by their officers. This did not create a situation where the troops were highly motivated to fight. Italians are men just like any other nationality. When given the proper motivation, they will fight. WWI gives us a clear picture of that.

...my...

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by Pkunzipper:

I agree. This is one of the few times I see this topic discussed with enough intelligence by everyone...

Botto, the ones that fought with RSI were no more and no less brave than the ones that stayed with the king or the partisans...

Men of all nations are equals, what that makes them behave in differents way are things like motivations (remember that Mussolini never was democratically elected), quality of weapons and their effectivness against enemy (Italy had no effective AT weapons, few SMG and also an old inadeguate 6.5mm rifle!), supplies and leadership.

...point!

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by von Lucke:

Or the Savoia Division at Dongolaas Gorge, or the Folgore Division's fighting retreat after el Alamein, or the actions of Italian Navy commandos, etc., etc.

Didn't say they were cowards. I am saying they were less than interested in laying down their lives for the cause. Big difference in running away in fear and panic, and just deciding you don't want to fight anymore.

To re-quote myself.